Transcript

Matt Heine (MH):

Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Tucker (ST):

Great to be here, Matt.

MH:

Steve, I think you're incredibly well-known to many of the people that will be listening today. But equally, some of the newer listeners might not be totally familiar with your background and history. So, why don't we start there?

ST:

Yeah, happy to tell a little bit about where it all started. Back in Perth, in WA I was a university economics student, graduated in 1987. There was a big stock market issue there, and ended up working through MLC, an insurance company. Which wasn't my first choice, but actually turned out to be a great decision because MLC and I really got along from the start, just a company that's been around for a long time, looking after the interests of Australians. And so I found my way into that business, and ended up coming to Sydney a couple of years later in 1992 as an economic refugee. There wasn't much going on in Perth back in those days, there certainly is now.

Started in Sydney in some sales and marketing roles, I spent some time in Melbourne as a State Manager for Victoria for a couple of years, and then back into Sydney, into some national roles, and eventually ended up becoming the CEO of MLC, which I enjoyed doing for about... Nearly 10 years, actually.

MH:

Pretty remarkable when you think about the fact that that was in fact, effectively your first job.

ST:

Yeah, I was in the graduate programme, I started in the call centre over there in WA. Probably learned a bit dealing with clients from day one, I think it's important to have that connection, and sort of enjoyed it I suppose. I was a bit nervous most of the time, but certainly worked my way through the organisation. I ended up being there for about 25 years, so it's a long journey. A few different owners, Lendlease was a fantastic company at the start, and learned a hell of a lot from them in terms of their approach to reward, and recognition, and talent, and management around those sort of things. And then of course National Australia Bank acquired MLC in 2000, and I went across with that transition, and worked for the bank for the next 13 or 14 years.

MH:

It's one of those great stories where you often hear about people starting off in the mail room, and working their way up to CEO. But what do you think it was that enabled you to actually move through the ranks? Were you putting your hand up for opportunities regularly, or were you being tapped on the shoulder?

ST:

Look, it's a little bit of right place, right time. I became the CEO at quite a young age, I worked for some terrific people along the way. But certainly two things I think helped me, one was I did put my hand up for some projects. There was a number of opportunities at Lendlease, and then NAB offered to younger people to sort of step aside from their role and move into project work. Which I found really interesting, and I was okay at it you know? I sort of had a chance to show a few levels up in the organisation that I was thoughtful about different parts of the industry, and so on. So that was helpful, and I think the other thing is I worked very hard, but I also spent most of my time trying to really focus on clients.

And people say that all the time, but I was at my happiest when I was out in the field in the market, talking to advisors, talking to clients. I had an old boss back in those days who said to me, "The answer is always out in the market, it's not in the office." And so I sort of managed to get a fair bit done by getting out and about and seeing people.

MH:

And at the time MLC was a very diversified business, it had insurance, funds management, and advice when you started. Is that correct?

ST:

Yeah, it certainly did. I was on the advice side when I sort of moved through my graduate programme early days. It was one of the first companies to set up a multi-agent division, or a... If you like, try to sell some of the products out through different channels besides the tide channels, which were dominant at the time. So, we are going back a long time now, Matt. And superannuation had arrived, and so MLC was a big superannuation business, insurance company. Actually a general insurance company as well, and several advice channels over time, became one of the more diversified advice businesses with both bank financial planning businesses, at the time we ended up acquiring a few, and Godfrey Pembroke was one, as well as Apogee, and MLC Financial Planning, Garvin, et cetera. So, a large range of different advice businesses, which is where I spent most of my career prior to going into that larger, broader role.

MH:

And when you took over as CEO, as you said at a relatively young age, it was a huge business. What were some of the things that you remember wanting to set out to do, or to change within the business?

ST:

Yeah, I was pretty young honestly, 38 I think at the time. And you know, you sort of think, "Well, what on Earth were they thinking giving me a job like that?" But I'd become a pretty outspoken, if you like, advocate for advice. Advisors at the time were getting a fairly hard time. It was a transition from sales, essentially, to actually giving appropriate advice. And we're in the middle of all that, you know? I feel quite strongly that the future needed to recognise a couple of things. One, I'd worked on a project where if you remember back in about '98, I think it was, National Mutual and MLC were coming together as... There was going to be a merger on, and I was actually the lead of the distribution group which was looking at trying to design what the future of advice and product should look like.

And we had decided that we really needed to separate, or try to separate the provision of advice from building great products. Because over time, what we needed to do was have centres of excellence in both those areas, rather than have essentially a product business with salespeople attached to it. I think that was the main reason why when they were considering who should lead the business into the future, I think people were convinced at the time that that was a good model. And so I spent the next few years sort of helping to implement that.

MH:

Leading change in a business of that size, no doubt very challenging, and not surprising... I think you've said that culture was one of the key things that you were able to deliver to the business at that time. What would someone working at MLC at the time say about your leadership?

ST:

That's a good question. Hopefully they'd say that it was a time when we were really challenging ourselves to do things differently, and not just accept the status quo. The industry was in if you like a state of corporate gridlock, there was a process where advisors and the big advisor aggregators were going around to the businesses, and trying to negotiate better deals, better margins, better trails on books of business as it was moving around, all that sort of stuff. And I just didn't believe that was sustainable, for two reasons. One, I thought it was a race to the bottom in terms of margins for products. Ultimately, you could bring market share but could you create profitable businesses?

And the second part of it was that ultimately, what was happening was the system was addicted to selling more product, and not necessarily giving the best advice. And whether it was a bank advisor or other advisors, it wasn't their fault, it was the way the structures had been designed for decades. If you sold lots of product you got rewards, whether it was a trip overseas or a flow of revenue from a product source. And I thought that had to change, and so hopefully the people that worked at MLC would remember the challenge we made to ask the industry if we could find a better way.

MH:

Yeah. As you say, the industry had to some extent become addicted to those trails. So, what you were proposing was a complete... Not evolution, but revolution of the advice industry. No doubt you met a lot of resistance along the way.

ST:

Yeah, it was a very interesting, interesting time. We decided that there was going to be a fair bit of resistance to the idea that commissions needed to transition away from... If you like, the success of selling a product wasn't really the success we were after. We were after looking after clients, and giving them the best advice. So to come out and suggest as the leader of a business that was really built around that system, that commission system needed to be rethought, and that we needed to separate... That it no longer delivered the value it once did, if you like, was the way we put it. I made a speech at Seeder actually, and I sort of outed the company that this was our strategy.

And the next day it was on the front page of the Fin Review, and I had a fairly long queue at my office door saying, "What on Earth have you done? This is crazy." And then we spent the next couple of days just talking to everybody, whether it was advisors who were upset, staff who didn't understand, or competitors who were angry. What on Earth are we doing? And we just simply talked about the fact that we needed to transition away from this system where product sales was the job, and move it into an advice profession. And it was the start of something which is still underway today, I mean we're talking about 20, nearly, or 15 years ago. So, we're still in the process of coming to that profession. But it was certainly a challenging time, and yeah, I've got a few pretty interesting emails which I kept, Matt.

MH:

I'm sure you did. And that philosophy's something that you still hold dear, I know, and we'll talk about what you're doing at Coded Capital in a moment. But given what was going on 15 years ago and the advice reform that's currently underway, are you surprised to see that one of the recommendations might be that vertical integration is in fact the right model for most of Australia?

ST:

No, not necessarily. I think that what we have to work out is, how do we get advice to the largest number of Australians we can? We know that the simple act of getting advice will help nearly all of them to better outcomes. The challenge of structural change is that things overreach, and there's overreactions. And we've seen a lot of people, advisors leaving the industry, and we've seen a lack of supply of quality advice. It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to jump back into a vertically integrated model, because the subsidies is what's arguably required to make it work. It means we've got to find better and different ways of getting advice into clients' hands that's in their interests, and that is impartial.

Vertical integration in and of itself isn't a terrible thing, and I never said it was. What I said was that if the outcome is delivering a product that the client may not need, or that the advice rewards are out of proportion to what the client might need because they want to direct them into a product, that's a bad thing. So look, I'm not surprised to see some conversations around that. I think there is, however, a very significant move towards independence. Not just at the private wealth end, but the mid-market is forming up around independents. Sure, there'll be some requirements for whether it's industry funds or others to provide some of those general... And I think we should expand the definition of general advice to allow simple things to be done for clients that are happy with the product that they're in.

But I don't think we'll end up back in the days where we have a whole system of advice, or if you like product advice that's subsidised by the fact that the outcome is the client ends up with a product that you're selling them. I think ultimately, independence is here to stay. It should be, it needs to be, and it's the only way we'll end up with a true profession.

 

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MH:

Do you think that post-Royal Commission the pendulum swung too far?

ST:

No I don't, because I think one of the reasons why it's taken so long to get to where we are is that ultimately, we want to bring everybody along the journey, and we want to make it all as inclusive as we possibly can. But there needs to be a point in time when people look around to each other and say, "It's on, now is the time for us to bite the bullet and work towards becoming a profession." I can think back to when we talked about these changes, I mean we've got a superannuation system that is huge and the envy of the world, industry funds that are arguing that they've got the cheapest and the best products, we've got advisors that were being told that they were sharks.

Every time you saw a photo of an advisor it was in a swimming pool with a shark circling around. You know, you had retail investor shocks, where things have happened that have been bad in terms of certain outcomes. Now we've got a new form of that with social media. So things had to change, and ultimately if you want to become a profession, and then it happened... A profession doesn't emerge very often, probably every couple hundred years, there's not too many. You know, sometimes you have to challenge the system, and it certainly has had a reaction where people have left. But I think you know, we'll get through this and we're already getting through it now, Matt. I think the system is settling down, and the reformation is underway, and we'll see more advisors coming in, and they'll be better qualified, and clients will get better outcomes.

MH:

Absolutely. One of the segments of Australia that clearly doesn't have a problem with the cost of advice is the high net worth, and ultra high net worth segment, which is again, clearly something identified close to 10 years ago. Having left MLC after people queuing up at the door, do you take any time off or how did the idea of Koda emerge?

ST:

I did take some time off, it was an unceremonious end actually, with a bit of a disagreement around... The idea at the time was that the banks should integrate wealth management businesses into the banking operations. I didn't think, and I still don't think that was a right strategic thing to do. I left and took some time off, I took about 12 months to think through the different things I wanted to do. It was not long after I left that Paul Heath and I, or Paul came to me and started talking about the idea of Koda, and we sort of started... After I had a bit of a holiday, we started thinking about what that might look like you know? And we got that underway after about a year.

MH:

I believe Paul was also thinking about the idea while on a health retreat walking up in the hills, so sometimes the best ideas come out of nowhere.

ST:

Yeah. Well, we had been together... Because MLC, or the NAB through MLC had acquired JB Weir, where Paul was the CEO. And interestingly enough, whilst I was sort of marching down this path of separating product and advice in MLC Paul had been very instrumental in helping to reform the stockbroking system away from just transaction fees and towards an an advice model, and had experienced if you like some of the same negative thoughts around taking that position. And so we obviously had an alignment of thinking around where we thought the industry entirely had to go, we just came at it from... Me from a more retail, sort of mass affluent market, and Paul from the private wealth market. But when he came to me and said, "Look, I've got this idea about a truly independent private wealth firm. I think it can work, and I think you should be involved Steve," I sort of thought, "Well, it sounds like a very good idea to me."

MH:

So a couple of Perth boys get together. What did the business plan on the back of the napkin look like?

ST:

Yeah, it was pretty much on the back of a napkin in those days. The business plan was, could we build a firm which basically had in its design all of the elements of a great advice firm that we thought we understood, that had been difficult to implement inside a system where there was some structural conflict? So if you like with a blank sheet of paper, what would you design the firm to look like? And I had a few key philosophical principles, one was it needed to look more like a professional services firm. It wasn't going to be a licensee system, and there's nothing wrong with those, but this wasn't an aggregator model. This was a professional services model, we wanted to have a philosophy of ownership. We believe, and we still believe that the majority of the company should be owned by the partners who execute the advice in the business.

We had a passion for talent and talent development, so we wanted to have scale so that we could bring in cadets, and offer professional year, and have associates become the partners of the future. And we wanted a culture of really open challenge, or a culture of best practise, and a culture where people could feel comfortable actually getting better, and not necessarily accepting everything the way it is. And those were the sort of elements of what is Koda today.

MH:

Both you and Paul had come from very large institutions. What were the early days of being a startup like? I think people look at the business now, and probably in many ways the envy of the industry given the success you've had, but it wasn't always like that.

ST:

No. And Paul and I often, over a glass of wine have a bit of a giggle about a few parts of it. I certainly remember very well when we had to take some offices, because it's very hard to recruit new partners to a firm if you're in coffee shop. We settled on the idea that they might want to actually see where they're going to sit, and what this is going to look like. So we took some premises down at Goldfields House at the Quay there, which was due to be knocked down. So we got a one-year lease on the basis that we're either going to need more room or no room in 12 months' time, and we opened the doors there and there were all these desks that were empty. And I looked at Paul, and Paul looked at I, and sort of said, "Well gosh, what have we done?"

But we raised some capital at the time, we found some investors who believed in... That the change was on. We never had any doubt that strategically we knew what was going to happen, and that might sound like a bold statement. But there's a point in time when you kind of think you know exactly what's going to happen, and you feel obliged to back yourself into that reality. And so I wasn't concerned strategically, it was more, how long does it take to get from opening a door with an empty office to generating some revenue, getting some clients? Would we get access to deal flow, would we be able to find investment ideas? Paul was very good at that. Would advisors trust us, or would they want to wait and see? In which case it wouldn't work, because everybody would be watching and saying, "Well, those guys might know what they're doing, but let's see what will they get to." So yeah, it was pretty hairy actually. Glad we did it, I'm not sure we'd do it again.

MH:

Was there a point over the last seven years where you went, "You know what, we've actually got something very special here?"

ST:

Oh yeah, look, I think fairly early on it was clear that we had a proposition that really resonated with clients. And that's probably a key point to this, I mean we can talk about Royal Commissions, or industry reform, or structural change, but the key issue for us was clients had worked out that for those who could understand the complicated system of getting advice in this country, they were starting to work out that independent advice was going to be the best way to get it. It was a really interesting time for us to look back on and say, "When did we start to realise we were on to something?" I remember, we won a big client, one of our first really large family clients, and they had a committee that was making the decision on behalf of the family.

And I rang the family, rang the chairman of this committee and said, "Look, thanks very much, we're very excited to be winning this business. Can I ask a couple of questions as to why did we win the business?" And he said, "Well, first and foremost and very obviously, it's because you're independent," right. He said, "But secondly, it's because our client thinks they'll be very important to you." Now, that's a different aspect to it which I thought, "Oh, aha, there's something interesting." Because they'd been dealing with big institutions, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've never knocked the services and the products of big institutions. But they've been kind of lost in translation in some parts of that, and they knew that because we were new and we would like them, we were building a business, and they built a business.

They knew that they were going to be very important to our future, and that we were going to take great care of them. And that essence of independence and intimacy was something that I thought, "Oh wow, we're really onto something here." And that's what's proved to be a big part of our success.

MH:

You've talked about independence a few times now. You've actually taken it a step further, and I believe you've signed up to the Banking Oath. Is that correct?

ST:

Yes, well the Banking and Finance Oath is an initiative separate to Koda. But, I was one of the founding directors of the BFO, just after the GFC. A group of executives got together, and if you remember back then, big institutions and the whole sector, it was getting a really rough time and people were feeling very exhausted, and uninspired, and people were actually leaving our industry. The Banking and Finance Oath was an idea around, isn't there a accountability for individuals to take around their behaviour and the way that they conduct their affairs? And so the BFO was born. And when Koda came into being, I thought it was very important that we had the principles of the BFO embedded in our culture and the way we operate.

And so yes, we're proudly 100% committed to the BFO at Koda, and everybody who joins the company as part of their induction programme has a conversation with various of the partners around what it means. And we don't force anybody to take it, but to this point we haven't had anybody who's had any issues with taking the Oath, which is fantastic.

MH:

And what are those key principles?

ST:

Well, the key principles are we act with honour, we compete but we act with honour. Our word is our bond, we stand for the truth. The whole essence of the Oath, rather than going through all the elements of it, it's around... It's built around an idea of trust, that there's a compact between a professional and their client, that that requires an ethical view of the world. You'll exercise ethical restraint, there are a lot of temptations to do certain things that generate a slightly better return for you but aren't necessarily in the best interest of the clients. Those things ultimately will kill a business, they'll kill it dead. It happens once and you think, "Oh, that was okay. Look, it wasn't too bad." Then you think, "Oh." It's the thin edge of the wedge.

Ultimately, if your absolute driving principle isn't that everything you do is going to be in the best interests of your client, I believe you will fail. And the flip side of that, it's absolutely possible to be wonderfully successful and do the right thing all the time. So, those elements of, or philosophical elements of doing the right thing, and being accountable for that are absolutely built into the culture of Koda.

MH:

Before we move on to I guess some of the recent and very exciting news around Koda, and maybe you've covered some of them already, interested in any thoughts you have, or any wisdom you can share for those thinking about starting their own business.

ST:

I would say be very clear on the market that you're trying to achieve. There is no compromises I think these days, in many cases businesses that I've seen over the last 30 years, it's sort of come one come all, we'll just get going and every dollar of revenue's important, and so on. Whether it's private wealth, whether it's mass affluent, wherever you choose to operate, I think being really clear on your proposition and what your client is after from you, why they would value the services you get. The second thing is to make sure there is a fair exchange of value, the idea of one client subsidising another doesn't appeal to me. I think every client deserves a fair exchange of value for the fees they're paying and the services they're getting.

And then finally, be resilient, be patient and be resilient. You need to have time, even though it feels like you want things to happen straight away. It's a very famous but very true quote, that one about overestimating what you can achieve in a year and underestimating what you can achieve in a decade. It's true, it's always going to cost you more and take you longer. But if you do it the right way, you'll get there in the end.

 

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MH:

It's great advice, and you've certainly delivered on that over the last seven years. Recently you've been in the news, Koda's brought in some external shareholders. A lot of industry consolidation, a lot of change. How did it all come about?

ST:

Yeah, it was a really interesting process. The board during COVID thought we'd better not waste a crisis, and we conducted a strategic review, as you do. We probably do that every year actually, but we were thinking about what our future should look like. Also our capital structure, and what we might need to continue to grow the firm. The firm's grown very, very quickly, but it's grown organically to this point. So we were sort of putting all those things into the mix, as to what we might do. And we had, as I said earlier, taken on some shareholders at the start of the company, and they own at about 20% of the organisation. So we settled on the idea that we can swap out some of those existing shareholders, and bring in a strategic investor that could bring a few things that we were looking for.

One was obviously capital, and access to capital in case we wanted to do MNA, or grow inorganically. The other was some strategic value, like by the fact that the group we ended up doing business with, Emigrant Partners, has 17 other private wealth firms in the US. So access to, whether it be technology ideas or other best practise is something we were looking for. We wanted permanent capital, we didn't want to be in a seven year funds structure where we had to do it every seven years and find new investors. And we wanted that capital to endure through us, because our ultimate goal here is not to sell Koda, it's to continue to be majority-owned by the partners but have capital on our balance sheet, and access to future capital.

So Paul and I jumped on a plane in the middle of COVID, and went over to the US in this time last year, and we used a group over there to take us around and explore what possibilities might be. The reason why I went to the US is because the US is actually ahead of us in terms of this shift towards the independent structures, it's been going on since the GFC and it's a very fast-growing and prevalent business model over there for advice, is large, independent breakaway groups. And also the valuations over there, and the understanding of the economics of these businesses, independent businesses is much greater, we think, than is currently here. Now, that's not the local system, but we certainly felt that we were at least going to try and explore what was going on over there.

Now, the facts are that they are looking at Australia and saying, "Look at this market over there, this superannuation pot of money. The shift away from institutional to independent advice, the significant wealth, generation of wealth transfer that's absolutely on in this country," and so on. So when they looked at Koda, an independent model that looks a bit like most of the businesses that I've invested in over there in the US, so they were keen to come.

MH:

And who are Emigrant Partners?

ST:

So Emigrant are a US-based group owned by a wealthy family out of New York, the Milstein family. The Milstein family have been investing in wealth businesses over there for many years. They have a number of other interests as well, in various different businesses over there. The Emigrant Group has specialised in taking significant minority stakes using permanent capital in wealth firms, because they really just like the business model. They like the stability of these businesses, and the growth trajectory of these businesses. And so as a specialist doing what we were looking for, they were the natural solution for us.

MH:

The industry consolidation appears to be accelerating at the moment, as you mentioned there's a number of US firms got focus group, Emigrant's taken a stake in Koda, and you've recently heard from the other large private wealth groups, bring in an international investor. Looking forward maybe five years, what does the industry look like?

ST:

So private wealth, it's clear to me the independent professional services model will be the dominant model. We expect there will be more Kodas, and there already are, and that's great. In the mid-market, we've seen this reformation if you like, or this rebuilding of this mid-market around what essentially looks a bit like professional services, or mid-market accounting firms where advisors are coming together, they understand that the businesses are profitable and the margins are great, they just need a bit of scale and they need a bit of brand. Eight to 10 to 12 to 15-partner firms I think will form up in that big market. And what that does is it starts to settle the industry into the new structure, the new structure of largely independent, largely partner-owned, quite profitable, margins are strong, businesses.

And that's going to attract capital, and it is. And that capital's coming out of, as you say, internationally, it'll come here as well domestically, where people are saying, "We like the look of these businesses, we know they're going to grow because all of the demographics and dynamics are there for growth. We like the underlying return from these businesses." The good news is, it's got nothing to do with product, or product outcomes, or product revenues, even managed accounts and other things will start to play out. And so, profitable businesses, great growing market, professional, quality outcomes, that's going to attract capital, and it is.

MH:

So the foundations are being set for what many are calling the golden era in advice. But, we've still got a supply issue and we're not getting new people into the industry. What do you think needs to happen to really supercharge that?

ST:

There's a lag in people's understanding, I think young people are coming into the industry, and I think partly we look at the negatives of a professional year, and qualifications and all those things, and the impact it's had on some of the more mature and experienced advisors. But I think it's had the opposite effect on younger people, I think they're looking at that and they're attracted to that because it's got structure, it gives them a career path, it gives them a chance to work in a professional environment where they can learn and grow, and ultimately end up being partners in a firm like Koda and others that'll develop those structures. So, I think it's happening. Is there enough? No. How do we get more?

I think it's just to continue to provide the talent with the opportunities to come in and follow that career path. Which has never really happened before, it's the first time in our industry or our profession's history that we've got these structures, and they're really, very very new. If you compare us to accounting or law, these structures have been around for decades, hundreds of years. We're really at the start of that. I'm very optimistic, the golden era, yeah. I mean, we might be at the very start of it, we may well be a little way into it actually, because most of the advisory businesses that are operating in this new paradigm are doing very well. But yeah, you're right, it'd be great to have more, particularly more youth and young talent coming in. But I think they're on the march.

MH:

MLC going way back was always very successful, they had their Horizons Programme, and I think was that AMP, and they were able to bring through a lot of people very early. Is Koda thinking about something like that to help bring people into the industry through a grade programme?

ST:

Yeah, we already do that. So, that was a big part of the design, is that we want to bring in... Whether it be cadets, students working during their summer break, or people coming through as associates, who will become senior associates, who will ultimately become the partners of the firm. At Koda we have a growth strategy that centres around three things, one is organic growth by bringing new partners in that are experienced at looking for a change, looking for an independent model, and come and join Koda, and become partners and equity owners in the firm. The second thing is organic through talent development, so that pathway if you like of bringing in these associates, and identifying them early, and getting the training into them so that they can become future partners of the firm.

And the last is MNA, we still think that even though Koda's not a huge firm, whether there's talent, or geographic reasons, or strategic reasons we might look at the odd MNA opportunity as well. But look, from a talent point of view the future of our profession absolutely demands and requires that firms like ours and many others manage talent from the moment they leave university, even while they're still at university through the programme to become the future of our profession.

MH:

Steve, we're about to finish. I know that you're an avid sailor. When you're on your catamaran and you're not thinking about work, what are you listening to or reading?

ST:

I've been reading a bit of the story of James Cook and the discovery of Australia actually lately, which is an interesting story, and just a disaster that became a bit lucky. But that's sort of Australian history is very interesting to me, I don't think we were taught enough about First Nations and other issues around the Australian sort of story. So I'm fascinated by all that, and very interested in it. But I also spend quite a bit of time watching the odd Netflix show when I'm sitting on the boat there just having a bit of a rest, and there's a couple of good shows out there at the moment.

MH:

Fantastic. Steve, thanks so much for your time, been very generous with your insights, and congratulations on all your success.

ST:

Thanks Matt.