Transcript

Matt Heine (MH):

Paul, great to have you on the show, thanks for joining us.

Paul Campbell (PC):

Thanks for having me.

MH:

Now, Paul, I'm not sure if you can hear it, but apologies in advance. Someone's decided to mow their lawn and chop down trees next to where I'm recording today. The beauty of COVID and recording from home.

PC:

I can hear fine.

MH:

Excellent. Now, Paul, I've been very fortunate to work with you and also the broader Xeppo team in official capacity since September 2020, I think it was, when we invested into Xeppo and very happy shareholders with 25%. But for people that haven't met you before or unaware of your background, I thought it'd be really helpful if you could just give us a bit of a potted history about what you've done and why you started Xeppo.

PC:

Okay. Well, I started in the IT industry, if you go back to original career in the first 10 years of my life, and then came across a guy called Ray Miles, who just announced his retirement actually the other day. So that's a bit of a pivotal moment, but he was at Associated Planners and they needed a lot of help with their technology back in the late 90s.

And I started getting involved with them around building a CRM system, if you can believe it, in Lotus Notes, so it's really starting to make me feel old. But anyway, I got involved with them and then eventually actually started working for them full time.

And so 2000, started to work for Associated Planners as their IT director. Dealt with implementing VZ plan, if you can believe it right back then, and saw that through, and then two years later moved into the operations role within the business, as it started growing very rapidly. And then not long after that, Associated Planners formed into Genesis Wealth Advisors, the merger of Garrison's and Associated Planners.

So I did that until 2007, and I had a great time. I think we presided over 400 or 500 advisors by the time we were done. Stepped down the same day as Ray, actually, and then about a year later, the GFC hit and I'm not sure how that all played out, but got approach to run, retire, invest. I wasn't really sure about that to start off with, it was a great challenge for me.

And obviously at the time, it was ING Australia and yeah, it was baptism by fire. A lot of angry advisors when I walked in there in 2009, I think it was by the time I was there. But four years of fantastic experiences, great team, and it was really good. And obviously throughout that we had the GFC and also all the FSR stuff coming or FOFA, actually for that point. And then also ANZ taking over the ING Australia.

So lots happened in that four years and then left in 2012, founded Opex Consulting. And then couple years later we founded Xeppo, so that's the high level 60 second overview.

MH:

Which is pretty incredible when you think about it, and I think you've got a very unique perspective when you think about your journey during that time, but looking at it through both an operational lens, but also technology lens, the amount of change that occurred during that period, if you think back to the technology usage of advisors back when you started with Ray, what was the focus? What were people using technology for and what were they wanting technology to do for them?

PC:

The internet wasn't really even a thing in those days. People were using ISDN and dial-ups, I'm really starting to sound like a dinosaur. So internet was really email. That was probably all that was really useful in those days. And then technology was the VZ plans were all installed in your office as standalone servers.

And I guess the game, nothing's really changed in that regard, they're all just trying to make the process more efficient. Obviously the regulations were not nearly as complicated as they are now, but they are really just trying to still generate advice, still do portfolio administration and obviously CRM or customer relationship was a big thing in those days.

But if you go right back then, VZ plan didn't really have a CRM, it was purely the SOA generator and a portfolio administration system. So one of the things we did was we actually built this product called Atlas, we codenamed it, and that was basically a CRM system where file noting, workflows the whole lot.

So nothing's really changed. We kind of look at Xeppo and think we're 20 years on and we're still trying to do the same thing, just trying to use technology better.

MH:

And that was [inaudible 00:05:55] my next question, you've gone from some fairly significant organisations, managing lots of advisors, and presumably with a balance sheet, to setting up your own business through Opex and ultimately Xeppo, what was your inspiration behind doing that?

PC:

So at the end of 2012, I've always been coming from a small business. So Associated Planners was a very innovative, very progressive company. And then you go to larger organisations as much as the balance sheets are there, there's obviously a lot more risk focus. So it was actually harder to be innovative in an organisation like that, because you spend more time managing risk.

So at about 2012, we could see a lot of things happening around us. And I actually went to a leaders' conference, actually, one of the professional planner summits and they had a futurist speak there, and he just talked about how data's going to become at the middle and how the client's going to be right in the smack in the middle of all of that, and so things are going to change.

So we kind of saw two things happening. We felt the banks were going to get out of it because it was just getting too regulated, and they couldn't make money out of it in terms of transactions, and we also felt there was a convergence happening. Whenever we went and talked to practises, we would sit there as an accounting or a lending arm to it as well.

So we would talk to the practises and say like, "How are you doing this? How are you going to bring those businesses together?" And the phrase holy grail was used a lot. So we really identified a need based on the trends we were seeing, having been in the industry for so long, we could see things were changing quite fundamentally with the GFC, the regulations, the banks, there was some tectonic plates moving at the time.

MH:

And when you think about the change over that period, and particularly over the last five years and I've spoken a little bit about this lately, I guess the intentions of the industry to adopt new technology and to use technology better in their businesses hasn't matched the actual adoption or implementation. What do you think is driving that? Is that just because the industry's been busy and distracted by everything else going on?

PC:

Regulation and change has just been constant for the last almost 10 years, really. And I know when COVID hit, for example, advisors I think took it on the chin quite gracefully because they've just been dealing with so many massive challenges along the way. It was just another battle for them to fight.

So I think my observation when I was at RI is we spent a lot of time having to deal with the regulations and trying to find more ways to help the businesses run their business better. And innovation and technology got put to the side of it because we were just dealing with trying to interpret what to do. And I think probably maybe two or three years ago, everyone just woke up and went, "Oh wow, we need to catch up here. We've actually been so sidetracked with all these other issues." Technology has to be a major player now.

And dealer groups really turned from being an innovative collaborative group from when I started with them to helping people transition regulatory and business change and the investment changes. So I think that's what's distracted us and I think you can see now, Netwealth itself has seen it, is that people are now embracing change rapidly because they realise it's so key to them being able to navigate through the next coming challenges of their business.

MH:

And through that transition you started at Opex as you touched on, which was really supporting existing enterprise solutions, how long was it before you pivoted and decided that the solutions out there weren't working for you and that you actually had to build your own?

PC:

Yeah, we started that thinking when we first started the business, we thought we've got to be innovative, we can't just look at using traditional software like the X plans, like as good as they were, what's coming next? So we really started looking from the day we started Opex. It probably took us two years before we saw more clearly what the need was.

And we took on a big heavy audacious goal, and that was to deal with data, particularly like so much data was starting to flow across the businesses, the businesses couldn't actually get hold of it. It was locked away in bespoke systems. And as your tech report shows, there's like 14 or 15 systems in play.

So data, we saw as the fundamental thing we had to overcome. So we started that journey, I guess probably two years into Opex, we didn't even know if we could do it. We knew there was data locked in accounting and planning, and so the first thing was, can we even get the data out and bring it together?

MH:

And what were the hardest things for you when you started the business? Where did you spend most of your time and what were the big challenges you had to overcome?

PC:

The hardest thing is when you do something that no one's done before, like bringing that data in and presenting it to practises. With the first day we actually put it together and showed our first client Opex. They said, this is amazing, and they looked at the data, this is fantastic. And then they quickly said, "Well, what do we do with it?"

So it's like having a smartphone with no apps. So we kind of went, "Oh, okay. So what do we do now?" So we then started having to build tools, I guess, and functions on top of the data to actually make it usable out of the box. So we've constantly been trying to navigate, how do you make this data more useful, and straight, without a lot of work? Advisors don't have time to figure it out themselves, they need you to figure it out.

So the biggest challenge has been just turning that into enablement because as far as I can tell, there's no other real Xeppo out there that's tried to tackle this challenge to the depth we have. So it's really been kind of charting uncharted waters. So we're still trying to find our way through it sometimes, but we're getting a lot of clarity now, but just solving that problem's been huge.

MH:

And this might seem like a basic question, but why is data so important to a financial planning operation?

PC:

Well, I think it's efficiency, it's about making their business run better. And if you've got good data and you've got good access to it, you can start using it through systems and automations. But first of all, you need to get into an environment where you can actually connect it to the tools you want to automate with, not just have it locked up in one tool.

So, for me, the key is data to unlock those opportunities. And I think my observation today is we've been building and working with software over a long time where we're just incrementally improving now, we're not fundamentally improving. And with all the changes they've had this year, they actually need much more significant efficiency gains than just incremental change.

So they need time and they need efficiency more than ever. And to me, data is what unlocks that. You got to be able to connect it to systems easily, same way your phone is you can just install an app and it connects to your contacts, we need apps to work in those ecosystems, and we need data from all your sources in the one place first.

 

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MH:

And when you talk about data, how wide is the data gamut that you are talking about?

PC:

Well, it's wide and deep. So we're covering financial services. So that's fact find data, insurance, investment data, revenue data, and we then replicate that in the accounting world, so same kind of thing. Self-managed super funds, lending, they'd be the key ones we would cover.

So going through that much diversity, the data model, as you can imagine is pretty big. The key is then bringing it down so that the client connect all the practise rather. It's like drinking from a fire hydrant, so we've got to try and bring it down into digestible chunks so they can actually look at it, and slowly get down into the depth of the data based on need.

MH:

You said earlier that you built this fantastic data warehouse or data platform, and then had to work out what to do with the data. What are some of the interesting news cases that you've seen practises adopt, or even create themselves sitting on top of your platform?

PC:

A couple of ones. Probably the first one was being able to identify opportunities across the verticals. So accounting firms... Another thing when we started Xeppo, going and talking to firms, you generally found they might have 15 to 20 staff in the financial planning, but they have like 150 sitting in the accounting division. And they would always say, "Look, I know there's so much untapped business there for us, we just can't get to it."

So the first one we started doing was trying to correlate data between the two divisions, so identify accounting clients that would benefit from financial advice. So that was probably the quickest ROI in terms of, they could just start getting referrals across in a much more efficient way, rather than just hoping the account would remember to refer. So that's one.

Revenue analytics. A lot of them don't know what their clients are worth to them. So again, integrated firm, how much is that client actually worth to me across the divisions? And where are the service gaps that again are opportunities? So they're probably the two most common areas where they would be driving new business and know your clients.

Marketing's obviously a no brainer. Again, that led to the first other problem, I guess, which is at the front of it, I think is data quality. Names and addresses are generally not in sync across their systems, and so that was one of the first things we solved was show them the client data and say, "Well, here's an email address, it varies." Date of birth, you might see fifth of the first in one system and first of the fifth and the other, because someone's just mis-keyed it back to front.

So they're probably the obvious ones we've tackled is just leveraging the data that they've got, not so much change management issues, just immediate benefit of getting data in the one platform.

MH:

Again, you touched on earlier, just the need to actually identify or understand what it is you're going to do with the data. How should practises think about data and how should they start their data journey if they haven't yet?

PC:

The first thing is to get into one place, like get the data into an environment where you can actually see your data in a much more insightful way. So we use things like Power BI, for example, to visualise data, looking it on a spreadsheet it's so static, or in a report you can't really manipulate or interpret that.

So we've found Power BI for example, a fantastic tool to give to them in their hands and just start clicking around and actually understanding their data. So we'd always encourage them, get them into the platform and let's just start presenting your data in new ways that actually starts you on that journey.

Because soon as you see, for example, total revenue per client, you'll start asking questions about, okay, maybe we're not charging enough or maybe why is that client not generating as much of revenue as that other client? So it will start generating questions and then you start getting on a role and you say, "Okay, well that tells us we need to start exploring other avenues."

And particularly with practises a lot of them moving to [inaudible 00:16:37], they need to understand where their business opportunities lie and they've got the flexibility to be a bit more innovative in some ways to do that in those cases, like maybe think about an accounting firm, that kind of stuff.

MH:

And as far as the data requirements between a licensee, [inaudible 00:16:54] practise within a larger licensee, how are you seeing that change?

PC:

So I think the data's pretty much all the same. Everyone's driven by the know your client rule in the AFSL. I think it's probably more just practises in our AFSLS, it's like moving house, they've just got a fresher look to what they're doing in some cases. So they're just trying to look at their data in new ways because they're in a new environment, change it creates is like moving house.

So I think generally they're all the same, there's not a lot of difference, they're all operating the same, they're all trying to do the same thing with their clients. It really just depends on what state of their business is at and what they're actually on to achieve. So start with an objective, grow business, service your clients, better understand service opportunities, those types of things.

MH:

And once the data in good condition and you've cleansed it across all the various enterprise solutions, one of the debates that we hear within financial services, but probably all industries is the debate around single system or core system through, and then partnering through a broader ecosystem. Do you have views or are you seeing those models evolving in the industry? And do you have a view on how it's going to look in the future?

PC:

Yeah, we're seeing all sorts of different models now. So you are seeing people who sticking with what I call a traditional model, one monolith type system, and just relying on it in. In some ways that's simpler, right? I just have one product, it's easier to deal with in terms of connectivity.

The problem with that is you are relying on one vendor to get everything right. And the way the industry's moving from a tech perspective, that becomes difficult. So then what you start doing is a core and satellite approach, where you start harnessing specific solutions into that, that then leads you to do you stick with the one main product or build around that? Or do you bring it into an agnostic platform and then build around that?

So that's why you're seeing different decisions and practises making decisions around where they want to go based on how agile and how free they want their data to be. And obviously we then start adding other verticals in what we would say in that case, you definitely need to put your data into an independent platform and connect to those specialist systems. So connect to your specialist accounting, connect to your specialist financial planning.

So all the models are in play from what we're seeing, probably depends on the size and the complexity of the business and their ability to deal with one of many systems. That's probably the biggest challenge, right? It's how do they actually have the resources and the time to focus on?

MH:

And the firms that are using technology or adopting technology the best, is there any common traits that you are seeing across the industry?

PC:

Yeah, I think they've got a really good progressive attitude. So they're wanting to embrace technology as a solution. So they're challenging technology to help them solve the problems, knowing that technology is a part of the problem and they need good people and they need their people to face into it properly.

So there's no question we see a good solution when they've got a person who's the champion and head leads it, and makes sure that it runs by the numbers, both with the vendor and also with the staff internally, so there's daylight between that. A couple of implementations we've implemented the whole thing in four or five weeks, because they've just had somebody on the game, making sure everybody's doing what they need to do, and it works really well.

I think they realise that technology is another resource. They're not sitting back expecting the technology to make the problem go away, they realise it's a resource as part of the solution. So attitude I think is probably the biggest difference. They know they've got to embrace it, but they're not expecting it to do it for them. You know what I mean? The technology, you can put a really bad process into a system like a workflow, you're going to get a really bad outcome. Just because it's got a workflow tool doesn't mean it's a better outcome. So the input is key.

MH:

A lot of the conversation today has been focused on obviously data and back office efficiency, compliance. What are the trends that you are seeing when it comes to the client engagement piece and what advisors are doing to create that digital environment or digital relationship with their clients?

PC:

Yeah, that's an interesting one. The most obvious one we're seeing is digital signing, starting with the basic, that's now becoming very prevalent where it's a much more efficient experience for the client to read it, click it, send it back.

Obviously webinar has because of COVID. Client apps I think have been talked about since Adam was a boy. The problem that when you sit down with a practise they'll say, "Yep, I love the idea of a digital engagement tool, they're generally lacking in confidence in the quality of the data that they want to surface to the client.

So it's back to that data quality issue that if they're not confident in their data, they're not confident to put in front of the client. I'd argue that in some ways, if you get the journey right, the client will help you validate the data if you get it to them.

So we're seeing some practises embrace it, but I think we've got a long way to go, and we've got to give them tools in terms of client apps that are easier to implement and ones where they're connecting to all the right data points, so I think we still got a long way to go on that one.

MH:

Possibly a good segue into a bit of a bit of future gazing. You currently deal with most segments of the market, so you've got high net worth clients, you've got smaller practises, you've got licensees. What are the big trends that you are seeing or where do you see the advice? And what's the structure of advice in say three years time and maybe five years time?

PC:

I think that's a good one. It depends, there's obviously a consultation paper going around about trying to simplify advice. But I think the first thing I'd say is advice is not easy. I think the one thing that we probably forget is if it was easy to give advice to a client, anyone could do it and you could automate a lot easier than what you're doing.

So I think we need to remember that advice is a very specialised skill and constructing advice is complicated. So I think what we need to see in a trend around technology is a different way of doing the SOA than what we've seen traditionally.

Still relies very heavily on discretion and experience of the advisor to then pass it to the power planner is still a very complicated, slow process. So I think we're going to see a lot more tools focusing on that problem.

We're obviously starting to see digital advice tools come out. We're in the very early days of that, so I think we will see a lot more automations and intelligent tools around advice, how far they get obviously depends on what the legislation allows them to do.

Automated advice I think makes sense for large employer groups and stuff. Advisors now, they've got to service their clients. So it's going to come around, not just advice, but also the cost of delivering advice from the back-end to the front-end. So a lot more automation I think will be the key and trying to use the smarts that technology offers today.

So again, if we can get through all the regulatory change, we can then focus on how do we actually make these things happen quicker and better?

 

 

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MH:

Potentially a loaded question. There's a plethora of financial planning softwares these days and more seem to launch everyone week, realistically, how many different solutions do you think the industry can support moving forward?

PC:

Not as many as we're seeing. It's a good question. I think obviously there's a lot of innovation happening at the moment, and some of those innovations will survive, some won't, and there'll also be mergers and consolidation, I think.

So I think we've got to let the innovation play out a little bit more. You've got your traditional products and then we've got these new emergence, so it will definitely grow and then consolidate. And it probably depends on who's playing in the market as well.

So obviously IWF have got their product initiative. I think the in-stores are all trying to build a new offer that's unique to them. And then obviously you've got people like IRS who are also going direct to platform as well. So I think there's more to play out. I don't know exactly how many [inaudible 00:25:57], I think it we'll have to consolidate at some point though because the industry is not that big to support that many products.

MH:

And getting smaller. And given that these are some absolutely critical business decisions for practise and really do underpin everything in many ways, what's some advice that you would give to practitioners, technology managers or practises that are looking at buying or selecting new technology?

PC:

I think always start with a plan. So to me, technology is a resource like your staff. So you have to be really clear on what your strategy is, and then how are those resources are going to help you get to your end game? So have a really good plan, that's basic fundamentals.

And then I think you need to research, be clear on what you want, look around the market, see what's available to you and pick the one that best suits your requirements, so there's nothing new on that, but I think you've also to your point earlier, you've got to look at the backing of those people. Are they a startup? And if you're going to invest in a three to five year vision with a startup, what's the risks involved with that? So I think backing in confidence that that technology will be around for at least three to five years is critical.

So where your data is stored, who owns the data. To me, what you should be looking at now is that you own the data. So you need to be in control so products can come and go, your data stays with you constantly rather than having to worry about a data migration.

So I think if it was me, I'd be saying, I'm going to mandate data, not product, that's my first step. And then I'm going to get systems to connect to my data, and then I'll run my ecosystem that way. So to me, flip it on its head, because the moment you go to the product you're stuck in there, then you got to move to another product, and you lose all your agility, there's better ways today to do that.

And then commit resource to it. The last thing is, as I said earlier, if you don't put people focused in your business on it, you'll get a half-baked result. You can make any product work pretty well if you invest in it.

MH:

I think that's great advice. And certainly as part of your onboarding or sales process is to actually do a bit of a tech audit. Is that something that you are finding has been really helpful for practises? And are people often surprised by what comes out of it?

PC:

They definitely find it helpful. I think it surprises them, and then that they've got more choice than they probably think. What's really interesting, we had a Xeppo conference, and the first year everyone said, we want more choice. So you know what Xeppo does obviously is gives them a lot of choice.

And the next year everyone said, we're really confused. There's too much choice. So I think what people want is a preferred tech stack. They want to start with something that is... so one of the things we are doing is we are building our, I guess a best practise resource library where we come to them and say, "Look, you've got choice, but here's a starting point with what we'd recommend as a good config." And then that definitely helps them to fine tune based on the nuances of their business rather than coming with a blank sheet of paper.

So it's just too much for a business to absorb with like what do you want? So they're definitely wanting guidance. And I think obviously when you get your own AFSL, for example, and you start meeting a lot more partnerships going on to guide you objectively because you don't have that institution making those decisions for you. Better or worse, they made those decisions, so it's easy. Now they've got to do it themselves.

MH:

Or to own the outcome.

PC:

I've noticed a few consulting businesses starting to merge in the marketplace where they're coming out as independent advisors, because I think that's what the licensees want to feel like there's someone who's got their back rather than the product vendor just selling their pitches, being the pitch. So I think we'll see more of those kind of partnerships emerging as well.

MH:

And given how quickly technology is evolving and how many new players are out there. What are some of the really interesting things that you are working on that you're excited about?

PC:

Lots of things. I think that the big things that we're talking about is obviously just digital automation and document automation. So one thing that I really like is just using better what you've got now. So Office 365, most people have got it and they're probably using 5% of it, and that's probably exaggerating it.

So one of the passions at the moment is getting people to use more of what they got. So let's integrate your Office 365. SharePoint actually has emerged as quite a good document management system in my view. We tried to implement it five years ago, it just didn't work. It's completely a different product. The practise is already paying for it. So what we are looking at doing is integrating and leveraging what they've got as much as buying something new.

So we've got to see more connectivity between the products. It's probably an incremental change than a revolutionary change, which is what I think practises are up for. So how do I use SharePoint and automate it with document signing and connect it to my client data so it's one touch automations?

And that is a great use case in my mind where we're just using what they've got, but we're providing massive or significant efficiency gains, which is what they're after right now. Just give me some time back. Don't give me new complicated systems, just give me simple solutions that I can incrementally improve.

So I think breaking it down at nice digestible chunks is a key focus for us. So that's one example where it's actually not that exciting, but I think for the practise, it's pretty exciting for them because they can get on with it simply.

MH:

And in the accounting space?

PC:

Well, time sheeting is an interesting one, right? So what's interesting about the accounting industry is they're coming from a completely different place. For the last 20 years, we've been talking about best practise and client value propositions and experiences inside the financial planning industry, it's been all about client engagement and CRM.

The accounting fraternities are coming from a tax return mentality where it's actually looking backwards in a lot of ways, and so for them, they do a format, the tax return and time sheet. They are now starting to move towards the CRM world where they need to be changing the way they engage with the clients.

And in many ways, I would say that they're catching up to the financial planners in terms of their obviously professions and all that, there's lots of other debates. But what we are seeing inside the accounting space is they want to start embracing CRM automations a lot more. So they're looking at efficiency as well.

So for example, we are integrating the Xeppo data warehouse with things like Xero, so all that time sheeting can be brought in so they could work in inside Xeppo and they can collect time sheets and sync them straight back to their accounting systems in one go without touching it.

So that's really going to step us and allow us to give accountants a much more integrated, true workflow environment, but still allow them to build out their core system. So that's the big one we're really working on, so that's pretty exciting.

MH:

Fantastic. And presumably if people want to find out more about Xeppo and any of your services, just head to the website?

PC:

Yeah, definitely. There's lots going on, and we're always happy to chat to people.

MH:

Paul, before we finish up, you were recently lucky enough to take three months off and travel around Australia. First of all, how was it? And secondly, how did you feel stepping out of the business for that period of time and what did you need to do to prepare yourself?

PC:

The trip was amazing. 11 weeks up through the Kimberley and the Pilborough and managed to avoid all the COVID lockdowns. We came back into South Australia the day they lifted the six-day lockdown, in August, I think it was. That was amazing. Just seeing Australia, the Kimberley was all inspiring in terms of the natural beauty up there. And it gives you good time to just think about your priorities and just keep it simple. So it was fantastic is in summary, and I'd recommend anybody to explore that part of the region. You can't travel the globe, but you can definitely see a fantastic country.

It was an interesting time to leave actually, because we were doing a massive growth as a result of the partnership with Netwealth. We were busy in executing our strategy and first step was to recruit new staff. So the good thing for me is I've got a great leadership team and they're actually not needy. On the trip, I was ringing them to find out how things were going, they were not ringing me.

I think the key is if you've got good staff that you can trust, it makes your life very easy. And in fact, I was probably missing them more than they were missing me, they were probably enjoying the peace and quiet. So it was nice to come back and for that three months, they'd done a great job of recruiting the team, and I think they learned a lot about themselves without me being there interrupting them all the time. They probably want me to go another 11 week trip, I suspect, just to give them some airplay and leave them alone. So that's a good thing for both of us, I think.

MH:

Did you manage to tune out or did you actually come back with a head full of ideas and then dump it on the team when you returned?

PC:

I really tried not to do that, that lasted a couple of weeks. But there were times when you... I think when you're disconnected and there was no mobile service, we went along across the Gibb River Road, and obviously you just tuned out, but not having technology is probably the best way to relax because you got no choice.

But when we got to [inaudible 00:35:02] Broome that week, you started shooting back in and making phone calls. So I probably did that a couple of times, once I realised the staff didn't really want to talk to me, I probably relaxed even more. But when I came back, yeah, I had lots of ideas, but the key was just let the leadership team and the staff just keep doing what they're doing. So it was a bit of both

MH:

Paul, that's been fantastic. It's been some absolute gems in there around technology adoption, the future of advice, but more importantly, just what practises and firms need to be thinking about as they embark on the next technological roadmap. We look forward to obviously working with you, we've got lots of exciting things planned and no doubt, we'll do another podcast soon to see how it's all going.

PC:

Thanks, Matt, appreciate the time.