Transcript

Matt Heine (MH):

Nathan, welcome to the show.

Nathan Fradley (NF):    

Thank you so much for having me.

MH:                    

Really appreciate you finding the time with ... I think we've got 10 days now till Christmas, or close enough to. Busy time of year.

NF:                      

It is. Although for the first time in I think my entire career of financial services, I'm actually going to come in for a nice soft landing. So, yeah, I think the last week before Christmas, I'm not riding around like a maniac. I closed my calendar. I took a beer there and we're coming in nicely.

MH:                    

I was going to say, was that a planned decision? Or it's just the way that it's happened?

NF:                      

It is a part of my personal growth, just trying to be more organised and do it for others. So, that's where it's come from.

MH:                    

Wonderful. Does that mean you've got more time to go and do Christmas shopping?

NF:                      

I've already done my Christmas shopping.

MH:                    

Wow!

NF:                      

For all that I'm disorganised at, I hate Christmas shopping so much that I do it in October.

MH:                    

Are you an online man?

NF:                      

A little bit of both.

MH:                    

Little bit of both?

NF:                      

Bit of both. Yeah. Do a bit of online, because you want to get an early enough that it actually arrives. And then obviously, sometimes you just don't know you heading out to those shopping centres and avoiding the crowds.

MH:                    

All right. We could chat about this for a while no doubt. But conscious we are on a limited time schedule. So, why don't we jump straight into it. Nathan, you'd be well-known to a reasonable part of the financial services market now, but do you want to just give us a little bit of background on you, your personal growth and how you ended up getting into advice?

NF:                      

We'll, start from the start. So I studied Economics University and in the last year I was working with two conveners. One was into bond trading and wanted to get me into investment banking. And, the other one was the financial planning side. And so, I'd lined up a scholarship to do investment banking, have an ACI sequence in the Singapore stock exchange. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. Blah. And I was like, "This is exciting. It's paid. That could be fun," but I'm not an academic by any means. And I was chatting to, I suppose, that other convenor, the mentor at the time and he said "Just do financial planning. It's your thing." All my mates are tradies. The concept of investment banking was a step further away. And so, I ended up taking a job in a call centre, selling financial planning over the phone, like many people in industry started. But within three months the NAB actually took a shot at me. And, I was a wild-card hire, so I was an advisor at 21.

So I was the youngest appointed advisor in the country. Rose pretty quickly there. And was senior advisor in about three and a half years, working out of the Kew Baldwin area and then started my own practise in March of 2015, which become Lime financial planning. And ran that for ... Well, December one last year, we merged into Tribeca Financial, where I've been working as a salary planner for 12 months. And transitioning, because it takes time.

But, yeah. So, that was my journey broadly. And then, from a very ... What did I get described as the other day? Eccentric. When I was doing financial planning I was also studying astronomy, just a post-grad, because why not? And, I've always been very interested in climate, which is what drove me into astronomy in the first place. And, yeah. So I started, I suppose, getting more and more interested in ethical investing, although at the time we had limited options. And, about two-and-a-half years ago, I made the commitment to go almost all ethical. And, by that I mean, if someone was not interested at all, but wanted to work with me, we could still work with them. But every client was having proper conversations, proper research and delivering ethical investment solutions. And that became ... It was very on brand given Lime and green and all that sort of stuff. But, it really became a big part of my personal growth, my development, but also what my interests were and my approach to financial planning.

MH:                    

Fantastic. I'm going to come back and unpack a couple of those things, in a moment. But, you sped through I guess your early days and how you got into the industry. One of the big challenges we're currently facing is how do we actually get that next-generation of advisors to recognise financial planning as a career choice, and the steps that they need to get through to actually be successful in that. What thoughts have you got at the moment on what we need to be doing more as an industry, to enhance, I guess, the reputation and bring through that next gen?

NF:                      

I think there's two parts to the next gen. So, we've got our younger cohort and these are the Gen Zs, the zoomers. They work for purpose, they want a job that is meaningful. And so, I was recently speaking at Deacon University on exactly this topic and why financial planning is so purposeful. And, I can go into a 25-minute tangent about how the actions that every single financial advisor makes substantially improve economic growth and reduce welfare reliance and reduce income inequality. And then the capital they allocate can shift investment and therefore public policy. But, fundamentally, you make a difference on a day-to-day life, which has a butterfly effect, broadly. And I think we as an industry are an industry. We were born into product sales. And what we need to demonstrate is there's a good part of the industry that are professionals and we deliver value to clients. We enhance their lives and we provide purpose.

 And once the zoomers that want purpose, that want to do it in that financial setting, will find purpose and advice. And I think on the flip side, we also need to look at other industries. It's a big jump to get into financial advice. But, great advisors have life experience. They don't have to be older to have life experience, but they have a life experience, because they need to be able to guide people through life. And there's a range of other occupations. I think we could start marketing our industry too to say, "Hey, you want purpose, you want drive, you want to do something that helps people, but we also have these other benefits in autonomy, in impact. And, why don't you look at changing, why don't you come across?" And I think that's another opportunity that we didn't ... I don't think we're really addressing right now. We're focusing on the grads coming through, because of those educational benchmarks, but I think there's an opportunity outside of that.

MH:                    

Fantastic that you are out in the industry and universities talking about these things. For those people listening, what more can they be doing?

NF:                      

I think looking at the way you position your services is everything. Again, if I go back to the old-school marketing that we've done, it's always traditionally been product-orientated instead of value-orientated. And we have an identity crisis as a profession. I've always said, why is there not a billboard when you're driving out of the Melbourne airport that ... You drive past the giant watch and you drive past a Porsche and then it drives past the picture of a happy family. And it's like, "These are the Johnsons. They're just getting back from their holiday but they also have sense of security and freedom of choice and ... " Da. Da. Da. Da. That's what we do as professionals.

And, once we start marketing that better to the broad base, we align the industry's identity with that, I think naturally that will bring more people in. I definitely think we're doing a good job of shaking off some of the past. I know financial advisors everywhere are seeing unprecedented inquiry. So, we're definitely doing a great job of raising trust, but we need to do a better job of displaying message, which is very hard to do, because it's qualitative. It's hard to quantify a better life for someone in a message, without coming across a pharmaceutical ad in the US.

MH:                    

Absolutely. Given the need to get in front of more people, the obvious participants in that are the institutions and platforms like ourselves. Are we the right people to be doing it or do we need the industry associations to step in? Or is it a government thing?

NF:                      

We've got the FPA/AFA merger potential coming up. I would love the industry associations to lead the way on the marketing side of things. So, a united brand. And then I think one of the other issues that we have and that advisors are facing is from an institutions or product perspective, a lot of the time clients have to come through us. Now, if they're not on an ongoing service arrangement or a retainer of some description, historically they were serviced, because there was a commission being paid out. And so, you just serviced everyone and everyone paid for each other. We don't have that anymore.

So, if I work with someone and I put them in a Netwealth account and then not an ongoing client and they need to just transact, I think it's really important that the product providers can deal with their clients directly. They don't need an advisor. I think that's super important. We've seen that enormously with insurance matters. Just being able to change details or update information, do some simple admin tasks. I think that's really where I'd love to see product providers actually deliver a direct-to-customer experience, while working with advisors. And that would take some of that pressure off the advisors to allow them to do what they do best, which is servicing clients as applies to values-based needs.

MH:                    

I haven't actually heard anyone, I guess, position it in that way. So you're suggesting that the hybrid model, driven almost from a B2C angle, but then with the ability for them to easily reach out for episodic advice?

NF:                      

Absolutely. In the transition, I turned a number of fees off. So, I had 70 clients and went down to 45 in my business transition. And I said to all of them, "I'm still your advisor, but when you need something we'll charge a fee." Now, if it's a two-minute phone call, I'm not going to charge them. But, if they just need to update their email address, there's a number of steps involved in that happening through a small business, that could be very easily managed through a product perspective. And what that does is that sticks us with the client, not with the product.

And the product becomes independent of the advisor, because if I've got a client who comes in who doesn't want ongoing advice but really needs an episodic piece of advice now, I'm also less inclined to use a product that they can't deal with. So, I think if we sort of siloed those things out ... We're not saying product providers be giving advice but they can do a number of things related to their product. And that takes that off the advisor, which delivers a better overall experience and also creates a better branding for the advice profession.

MH:                    

Are you talking particularly about younger clients? Or who do you put into that hybrid-advice model?

NF:                      

Oh, everyone. Historically, advisors have operated as gatekeepers. If you think back pre-apps ... And, if you're a young person wanting to invest in something, you had to either go directly through shares before it [inaudible]. Or, you went on some platform that was ... It was too expensive, it didn't work. So, we had this lost opportunity for an entire generation of people who could have built wealth through unitized manageed investments. I think if we start looking at that now, if you can come to me and I can put you in the best product and you can self-serve to the point of updating information, doing a withdrawal, that kind of thing, I think that takes the need to go to an advisor and pay them $440 an hour to help you fill out forms.

If you need help to do that, the value is not filling out the forms. The value is the hand holding through the process and the taking away the pain of doing so. That's different. Same as Centrelink, you can go and self-serve through Centrelink. Or, you can go through an advisor and they can help you do it, that's fine. But the fact that you have to seek an advisor to do things with certain products makes ... I mean, it makes things inherently conflicted, but it also makes it challenging for advisors and it makes clients experiences worse off.

MH:                    

I think that's a great example. And it's one of those conversations I think advisors probably should start having with their clients and explaining that there is a lot that they can do themselves, if they want. I'd love to know the stats of how many people actually go through the Centrelink process without an advisor, because it's complex and a lot of people are actually wanting to outsource that part of their life.

NF:                      

Mm. Absolutely. And Centrelink is difficult. The putting in the forms is easy. The following up with all the problems on what's happening and what's gone wrong, and did I get right advice from a FIS officer and all that, that can be really challenging. But, also very time-consuming for advisors, so it can be quite expensive. So there's a whole inequality issue there for those that need it the most. Can they afford it?

MH:                    

We're going to cover this a little bit later in the podcast but must as well jump in now. The QAR. I know you've got some fairly strong views on it. How do you see that playing out?

NF:                      

Look, I think the QAR feels to me like an excuse to do what we should have been doing already. And that's fine. It would include, by the looks of what's playing out now, some level of advice that product providers can give, playing on what we just talked about. But if you look at the core value of our legislation right now, I mean, outside of the fact that there's conflicting layers of things that ... But, if you take the law, not by the words but by the intent, and then look at some of the words, there's no word for "written Statement of Advice," in the Corporation Act. It's just "Statement of Advice." So we've ended up with, again, if you go historically, these documents that are 70 pages long that were borne out of heavy bank assurance programmes, where they were getting people to sell product. And I think that they don't align with the legislation, they don't align with the regulatory guides that were provided, the RGs that are out there that have two-page SOAs, that have 12-page SOAs.They're so heavy in things.

Ripoll in 2009 said more disclosure does not equal more understanding and better consent. And yet, they kept getting more complicated. Through every reform we just laid more and more in and it doesn't help the client. So, if you take it back to brass tacks, and the FPA's been doing a lot of work with this, with their video SOA programme. They took it back to the least amount of document that you could potentially do [inaudible] end of the current legislation out of the current rules, we could deliver concise advice that is malleable in an appointment, that providing that you can demonstrate you've done the work behind the scenes ... Because, the SOA is not the problem. The SOA is an advisor problem, not a client problem.

 You've done the work behind the scenes, you can demonstrate that in, the client understands it. The best way to do that is to film it. We can do so much under the current legislation. And within the walls of Tribeca, we are looking at that nowm building something that is both appropriate now, but also will endure through QAR, so we don't have to reinvent ourselves when we get there, with what we know, at least so far. So, I think on the surface, I'm all for less wordy nonsense. And I'm hoping that it's the excuse the industry needs to do what we potentially could do right now, because we've got confidence in doing that.

But if you look through, people are afraid of the big, bad ASIC. ASIC's not coming after and mom-and-dad advisor in the suburbs, they haven't gotten resources. If you look through the AFCA complaints, more than half fall in favour of an advisor. And then not whether or not you've put in that generic text in the SOA. They're bad advice. So, that's not the problems. And once we get away from that, I think as the profession we can remove the problem that is our problem, it's not our client's problem, which is this long documentation. And actually service clients better.

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MH:                    

You touched on the work that the FPA's done in regards to the video SOA, and I know it was a project that you were involved in. For those that haven't come across that concept, what does a video so a look like, what does it include? How long is it?

NF:                      

I think when people first think about it, they think oh it's just a so SOA in a PowerPoint presentation, which is not. And that's fundamentally, it goes back to the word, the word "written" is not in the legislation. So, straight away, if you remove the word "written," you are making a statement. You are telling someone something. And so, by definition, providing that you can show that it's best interest for them to make a product decision, remembering that your statements of advice are all about product, and that you've done the research to show what alternatives are available, that their current product, or if you're recommending their current product is appropriate, it is either inappropriate, or the features and benefits lost outweighed by gained. All that kind of stuff, you could sit there with a client, Matt ... You could walk in and see me and say, "Hey, I've got Superfund A. I want to review my Super." And we could sit there live, do the research together, and I could say, "Cool. Go and invest in Superfund B like this." And that's the Statement of Advice.

The challenges that we have is, we need to make sure nothing ever gets missed. And so the structure, in itself, comes back to what they call the agenda. And the agenda is a list of slides, because it's easy and their bookmarks on a video, that have each section of your presentation, that you can refer to. And providing that you've got your talking points on it, you do not miss each of those things, which are things we do anyway. And I would wonder how many advisors out there are going through page by page of a Statement of Advice with a client, and having a good experience? You're basically just demonstrating that you've done the work, explaining what your recommendations are, why you recommend them, what the considerations are, what the alternatives were, what the fees involved were and what do they lose or win? The same as the document. But, you're just telling them about it. And you're using slides and other tools to, I suppose, demonstrate that value.

What it opens us up for, for technology perspective, is instead of everything feeding into this Word document that gets extracted and printed, technology can be used live with clients. That's the really powerful thing. So if you look at ProductRex, which is like a wealth-solver tool, they've built a format that you can ... It's a more of a client-friendly version. If you're looking at XTOOLS, we've got some tables and things we can use. If you're looking at our stuff with Ethos, we've got a live reporting tool that you can click on things. And that makes technology fun, it makes it client-orientated, and it's not just about how do we merge this thing to a Word document and print it off?

It becomes about how do we make something client friendly, that demonstrates what we're trying to explain and allows them to provide from full consent? So, it's a very cool concept. Within the current legislation, I think it's going to take a little bit of playing around for people to get what's right for them. And I don't think we're not going to be giving documents to clients. We'll still give summary pages, one or two-page SOAs, tables with fees, that kind of stuff. Sure. But, I think this is a real step in the right direction.

MH:                    

I've seen some of the early examples of, I guess, the prototypes. And it's a fantastic way to actually A, inject some personality into the process, it can be entertaining, it can be serious. And as you say, a combination of talking head, could be whiteboard and also doing screen grabs from the modelling tools that they're using. So it's a far more engaging experience for the client as well, and they can watch it when and where they want.

NF:                      

Absolutely. And, providing you stick to the agenda, it becomes divisible, it becomes client-focused, and fundamentally that's what we want. What I find interesting is some advisors who have been crying out, "We want better, smaller documents." also hold onto that SOA tight to their chest like, "I don't want to get rid of it." And I think that's a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome or something. But we'll get there in time, we'll get there in time.

MH:                    

The concept's great. Have you actually seen anyone adopt it broadly across their practise, or is it still very much in pilot mode and something that people are playing around with for one or two clients?

NF:                      

There's only a couple of people doing it, right now. But there's a few people that are very close to what it looks like for them. So we're working through it at the moment with Tribeca around starting at the client first and working backwards, and that's what we're building out. I know James Wortley at Enlightened, he's been doing it for a long time, and he was sort of the poster boy for it initially. And I think in the next 12 months we're going to see it explode, because the FPA are rolling around the country, going through it with people. People are figuring out what it's going to be. There's going to be a bit of a teething period, hopefully a really good sharing of best practise, especially with the, hopefully, United Associations. And I think with that, over the next 12 to 18 months, the early adopters will get on it, will figure out what works, will share it with everyone else. And despite QAR, we will see a drastic improvement in delivery of advice.

MH:                    

We hadn't necessarily decided to go down this path, but it's an interesting one. What sort of resources is someone going to need? Obviously a video camera would be helpful, something like a Vimeo, presumably to store and upload documents or YouTube. What are some of the other key tools that you'd recommend?

NF:                      

I mean, a good mic is crucial. There's some really cool stuff. There's one tool that is out in the States at the moment, which is this camera that sits in the middle of your table, and it has a circular camera and a circular microphone and it points to who's talking at the time, but everyone's always on screen. Beause a massive part of this, which is also really powerful is, you're not having to write file notes to say, "Oh yeah, Matt acknowledged what I'm saying right now because he's nodding." because we can see Matt nodding. So you're getting so much more communication through that medium, but a camera would be bare minimum. I think this might be some limitations for some people, camera, sound quality. If you've got a really busy office or you're next to a train line, that's going to make things a bit more difficult.

 And then, I think the challenge and the opportunity for someone to come up with, and Ben Marshall and I fleshed this out one day over a coffee, is some software that you could load the video into, create bookmarks into that would auto transcribe, and you could then just scroll through. The client could log into their secure portal and scroll through the video to where they needed to be, and search oh, "insurance" and it shows which parts that they talked about insurance in. And I think that's the opportunity for software, instead of the next-best coded SOA. I think that's probably the gap no one's really done yet.

There's a few apps out there that allow you to preload webpages and everything into a single thing and you could maybe loom the video, or something like that. But I think a little bit of a tech stack at the moment, someone will solve that problem and put it all in one place. And when they do, and maybe Netwealth can build something into the client portal, I think that will have a huge, huge powerful benefit, because it stops being a written document and it starts being records for clients to access and go back and watch.

MH:                    

Speaking of technology. You were busy running your own practise, you were studying astrology, in the evening, no doubt.

NF:                      

Astronomy, not astrology.

MH:                    

Sorry, astronomy, not astrology.

NF:                      

Although I am an Aquarius.

MH:                    

Got that, yeah. And you decided to also start a tech company focused on ESG or ethical reporting, called Ethos. How did that come about?

NF:                      

So, I can't take the credit for starting it. I found the starter. So I got on very early in the piece. It was originally developed by a guy named Luke Wilcox in Minneapolis, and he's ex-McKinsey impact analyst, and taught himself to programme doing some other apps and then really lent into this. And it was originally a direct-to-consumer product, and it was about identifying companies that you could work for, and what they're doing that's great, as well as who you bank with and where you buy stuff from and that kind of stuff. And he identified that maybe financial advice could be a good market. And I got in at about that point, being an advisor, being in this space already. And we came through and went, "Okay, how do we build this for advisors in mind?" "ESG done easy" is kind of the concept.

 And that was from my experience where a lot of advisors don't ... They want to do ethical investment, responsible investment advice, but they don't want to end up in a conversation where they're going, "Oh, is this ethical? Is that ethical? I don't really know." And the client says, "Oh, well, but blah blah's not good because I read the other day that they did this." The advisors, then they're called with their pants down, and they want to be the expert in the room. And I think that that's a challenge that they're finding. And also it's a massive rabbit hole, once you start down there, there's so much to learn. And the tools available at the time, before I met with Luke, I used to read PDS's, I used to use a number of their ratings tools, but you couldn't see what was underneath the hood.

I had no idea why this fund got three globes and the index was also three globes, and yet this fund was an impact fund, without ringing someone. And as a lowly advisor, no one was going to talk to me. So, that became really, really challenging for advisors as well. So what we wanted to do was make something that had a front end that the client could engage with, that was client-friendly but simple, that focused on causes, not what I want to include or not include. It was about creating impact, not whether something's good or not. But then, that personalised the ratings of investments to them. And so I always use, for example, Tesla. There was a lot of news around "Is it a good ESG company?" It got pulled pull from the major index in the US, [inaudible]. If you're into climate change and lowering of GHG emissions, Tesla's fantastic as an investment. If you're into labour rights, and a few other things are really important to you, maybe not so much.

So, what's right for one person is different for someone else. And the aim, behind the scenes, of ours was making it transparent. So if you wanted to know why something was rated, you didn't have to ring me, we're a software company. And secondly, being able to personalise that rating for your client. And then lastly, you need to be able to report that to a client in a way that's friendly for them, so that you don't have to redesign the wheel every time. So again, that whole ESG done easy. So, understand them, do the research and then provide it in a report. And at the end of the day, that's what we're doing. There's some aspects we're working on at the moment, from a UX perspective, but we're doing it pretty well. And then that sort of grew into we're now working with SMA providers and research houses, and starting to really expand that.

And I think one of the interesting parts of our data, is that we don't gather it, we compile it. And by that I mean, we use everyone else's data and put it together, which means we're uncapped and we don't have to defend anything, because if someone's got some bad information and we can find better information, we use it. So we are wanting to be proven wrong, so that we can get it right. And that really opens us up. I think some of the issues with ESG data has been around that, that there's potential biases, there's things being missed or they're unchangeable and you can't understand why. And you end up with back and forth dialogues.

And I think fundamentally, we wanted to avoid that, and then make it really easy for advisors to sit down with a client and go, "Hey, what's important to you? Climate change in general, great. We've now done the research, and your current investment sits at 70% alignment. You've found a good ethical investment in your super fund, but here are three other options and how they appear for you. Some are more expensive, some have got a better historical performance, what's most important?" And then take that, and provide advice on that accordingly. And I think we're delivering that pretty well.

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MH:                    

And you touched on one of my real bugbears in the industry at the moment, we've spent quite a lot of time talking about ESG and impact in the last few episodes, but the biggest gap I see is actually that reporting piece and the data that supports it. So, it's a big step forward. So how many different data sources are you pulling into Ethos, to try and drive that consensus view?

NF:                      

Right now, I think we're at 271. So there are a variety of NGOs, private organisations, data scraping, we scrape news, we scrape financials. And then we've got some subscriptions as well, to major organisations that do a lot of this work as well. It's pretty massive. But the framework and the infrastructure is such that we are about to launch a private equity function, that has all the questionnaires built in and custom questionnaires, and it pulls that data and rates them with that. So you can have your own data to do that.

We're working with a fairly large fund manager soon around building their current data sets that they use already, in with ours as a tool. So the software itself is the key, because we can get data from everywhere and we can compile it and we can rate it and we can rank it, and then apply different materialities, then apply client materialities. And I think that creates a real ... It stops limitation for us. We're not dependent on firstly, a room full of 700 people that are brilliant at what they do but cost an absolute fortune. And secondly, we are not limited by our own intellectual property on our data, we can bring everyone in

MH:                    

And the range of assets or the types of assets that you cover?

NF:                      

Right now, it's majority of equities. We do cover bonds and fixed interest assets on an issuer premise. And if anyone's listening who wants access to a purpose premise, we are launching that soon, providing we get a number of people on board who want access to that. So with a couple of fund managers on the ... You can't automate bond data, it's just too hard to find out what the purpose is and is it good or not. So, we need feet on the ground. So if we get the resources behind us, we will launch that. And then private equity assets will be next. And we do public and private companies right now. We rate government bonds, we've got government data. We don't rate things like commodities and things like that, because what are you going to do with that? And we are looking at launching a cash rating system too, which will be based off the bank itself, or whoever's issuing the cash.

So yeah, we're a decent spread. But we launched in July 1 of last year. A US entity was bought by ACA Group, about two months ago. So we were looking at raising capital, we had a few people wanting to come on board. They really fit well with us because they're a data and compliance company, where we were getting offers from investment companies wanting to turn us into another ETF provider. And that just didn't align with our pure vision. So yeah, with that we've got more resources, and that's enabling us to grow functionality really, really quickly.

MH:                    

And you mentioned before your client base is advisors, direct clients, fund managers, SMA provider, which is the biggest segment out of all of those?

NF:                      

The fastest growing in Australia, is the SMA providers, right? So people who build portfolios. We've actually had a couple of funds get in touch with us and say, "We want to work with X, and they won't look at us unless we're rated on Ethos." I'm like, "Yes, that's so good." So we're looking at these small private wealth groups, or SMA providers, for advisors that are dealing with two bill funds under management, and they're using us as their framework. But then also using it with their advisors. So they'll go to their advisors, or the advisor that comes to them and says, "Oh, I've got this ethical client, you guys have an option?" They say, "Yep." And they'll use Ethos to work with that client and then provide their solution. So, that's been the fastest growing, advisors, by revenue. Advisors definitely growing really, really quickly, and we're really involved with that market. And then fund managers are just slow to move in general. I mean, they're big organisations, they're bureaucratic. So we've been working with a few for a while, but I see that momentum building really quickly, which is very exciting.

MH:                    

Website, for those that want to have a look?

NF:                      

That's ethosesg.com.

MH:                    

Excellent, check it out. That's a full-time job for you or that's something you are doing after hours?

NF:                      

That's a great question, Matt. Going back to personal growth, I'm full-time at Tribeca, we do a four-day work week, but full-time at Tribeca. And then I do Ethos. And then I ran a conference this year, Ethical Advice Conference, which was fun, which you guys sponsored, and that was absolutely fantastic. And then somewhere in there, I have friends. And I've got a wife too, she ranks pretty highly. But yeah, I do work a lot. So, my personal growth is to get more and more tailored as we go. But yeah, no, I got a fair bit on.

MH:                    

How do you get better at saying no?

NF:                      

I've got ... You know the devil and the angel on your shoulder? Yeah, I've got my mentor on one shoulder and my wife on the other, and they're effectively like, "Is this going to add value to your direction or make you happier?" And the other one is this ... So a big question I ask myself, feeling a bit deep here, Matt, "Is this for you? Is this for your ego or is it for a purpose?" And that's a big thing that I'm working on at the moment. I'm a big extrovert, I love being involved in things and being part of things, and it's like, well choose the things that really drive difference, because you can't do everything. And if you try and do everything, you'll do everything badly.

MH:                    

You've touched on the fact that you've had a mentor at different times in your career and in your life a few times. And again, it's a recurring theme that's coming up very regularly on the various episodes. For someone that doesn't have a mentor, thinking about a mentor or doesn't think they need a mentor, what advice would you have, and what value do they actually add on an ongoing basis?

NF:                      

It's really funny. So I'm mentoring at the moment, more formally. I've had some people come along and sort of ring me when they needed things, but I have someone I catch up with fortnightly now, and mentor her. She's a new entrant to the advice industry, she's been around for a couple of years wanting to be an advisor very soon. And she just walked up to me and said, "Hi, my name's Tiana." And then she said, "Can we get coffee?" And I was like, "Yeah." And we were at an AFA function. And then, at the end of that she said, "Can we get coffee regularly? I'd really like it." And she just asked, which was completely out of character for her as well. So it took a lot for her to do that.

I was fortunate that I had people take me under my wing. So my mentor, almost my entire career, is Luke Ashby, which I think I've dropped his name a few times on podcast. I was supposed to have coffee with him this morning and I forgot. So sorry, Luke. But he's a BT and MLC insurance guru. And I just check in with him once every, probably three months, these days. And we just see what's happening. I don't know, I've got very high trust. I think with a mentor you have to have such high trust that you will listen to what they have to tell you. And a great mentor will tell you not what you need to hear, but what you should hear. And I think that is really powerful. And the only way to get one is to ask, and it's finding people who have done what you've done or know people that have done what you've done, I think, is really important.

And there's always someone that's done it before, we're not that unique. But also someone who has the ability to learn from their mistakes, that growth mindset is extremely important for mentors. "I've done this, don't do it the way I did it. Do this, that worked well. But here's what I've learned." Because you're wanting ... The mentor's job is to teach you to not make the mistakes they've made, so you can get there faster than they did. So their core purpose has to be, not in finding their happiness through their own actions, but finding happiness through others actions. And I think a great mentor, that's what they do, that's what I aspire to do.

MH:                    

It's a big commitment, on both sides. For someone considering being a mentor, are there organisations where ... We work closely with FEW, for example. Are there other places that people can either put themselves forward, or is it really something that evolves naturally out of one's own network?

NF:                      

There is, there absolutely is. I don't know what they are. But I know a few people that have gone to organisations, and obtained coaches or mentors from other areas and built that relationship from that. A few friends of mine went through the same group, I just can't remember them for the life of me at the moment. But yeah, I think for myself, it's more or less come from networking. But not everyone can just walk up to someone randomly in the street and say "hi". I mean, everyone can, but it's harder for some than others.

MH:                    

Given that we're getting close to the end of the podcast, but also the year, what have you got planned for next year?

NF:                      

Do less. So I've been issued a challenge at Tribeca, to do my full-time job in 30 to 35 hours a week. And that's a cultural thing that we're really trying to drive, work effectively and work less hours. That's the four-day work week. And I think it's achievable, I think we've got the right mix. And then I'm going to start doing some more work with Ethos, and then some more directed work when it comes to things like speaking and that kind of stuff. Done the touring a fair bit, and now I'm sort of picking my gigs better. And then I think I'm going to start doing a bit more on the human side of advice as well. And everyone knows me for ESG, but I'm big into financial psychology and the human side. And I think it's a big area that as a profession, we need to lean into, to grow into a reputation.

MH:                    

Given all the things that you are involved in, do you have a blog, website, podcast, Twitter handle? How should people follow what you're up to, and particularly when you're doing less?

NF:                      

I was thinking of starting my own TikTok, but I don't know if that's doing less. I do have a podcast that went on hibernation last year, called "Good for the Bee" as in "What's good for the bee is good for the hive." And that I'm probably going to kick off again next year with a slightly different angle, and look more at sustainable careers and cool careers instead of just cool people and sustainable people. I think that's just more because I get the opportunity to meet some amazing people, and I just want to share their stories with others.

People are often shocked when they listen to my podcast, because they'll hear me on something like this where I'll talk pretty much non-stop for 40 minutes, and I say very little on my own podcasts, and I think there's an art to it. So yeah, that, the Good for the Bee. And there's some great episodes on there, if you're into environmental and social issues particularly. And then LinkedIn is my main platform. I've mostly connected with people on there, and I always reply to messages. Anyone who reaches out to me, I always make an effort, because if you've made that effort, you deserve the reply.

MH:                    

Nathan, we've run out of time, but thanks so much for coming on the show. And as always, great chatting and good work on everything that you're doing.

NF:                      

Thanks so much, Matt.