Transcript

Matt Heine (MH): 
Hi, Matt. Welcome to the show.

Matt Brown (MB):
Hi Matt, pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

MH:
Really good to have you on and thank you for joining from Sydney. First of all, how's things up there. You coping okay?

MB:
Yes we are in what I call an extended grounding. Just takes me back to my teenage years, but we're going pretty well. And the warmness of this new spring air is much welcome relief.

MH:
Absolutely. I think today around the country, it's actually the first sunny day everywhere and we're certainly encouraging our staff to get out and go for a walk.

MB:
Yeah, good idea. Everyone should do that.

MH:
Now Matt, you've been around in the industry for a little while, I was going to say a long time, but you're not that old, for those listeners that haven't come across you before. It'd be really interesting just to get a bit of your background and some of your career highlights.

MB:
Yeah, certainly, you may not have called me on that, but what I heard was that I am getting old and when I look into the mirror, that's certainly the case. I have had a really fortunate career that started way back in the day with a bit of a legal background. So my sort of early formative years were with a legal lens, but I've had such a fortunate run of the financial services industry as a whole. So I had roles from a product management, simple cash funds and eligible rollover funds and things like that. I had part of my career in compliance work, which was fascinating and then later in my career I moved to advice, it's held me in really good stead. I was an insurance underwriter for a while, albeit, a junior one.

So I did some really fascinating things. But then paused to think about well, was in my mid-thirties, what was it that I was really wanting to do and perhaps, I'm a late bloomer and late to mature, but it was starting to decide, well, ‘what difference do I want to make?’ And that's where through a couple of personal family related intersections with tragedy, saw the passing of my father-in-law and that of a young cousin coincided with that sort of reflective period, and I said, when I saw the impact that the comfort that my mother-in-law was able to obtain by knowing that while she was grieving and doing her thing and preparing for the next phase of her life, that she was able to know that she was financially secure and she had someone in her corner, no matter what, looking after her, that was golden.

When my father-in-law, on his death bed saw that and said, "Thank you, Matt, for," because I introduced him to a financial advisor, "I know my girls will be safe." That kind of sold it for me and kind of haven't looked back in terms of my journey and career into advice.

MH:
Fantastic. And if you go back to even the early days, when you started in the legal profession, did you have an inkling that you were going to end up in financial services or is it just where you happen to end up at that point?

MB:
All right. So I'll be real, I don't want to be misleading. I hold a master's of financial law, but I'm not a practising lawyer, never have been, never could be, never would be. And I was already dabbling in the financial services. I always had an inkling that the financial world is where I wanted to be, I just wanted to have a deep understanding of the legalities. So, that was where I got... So, never dreamt at the early part, that financial advice would be where I would land. Maybe I was looking more at sort of executive roles into planning and strategy or innovation or something like that but not advice. Funny where you land.

MH:
That's it. I think that's fantastic, personal story. And given that was probably a few years ago now, just goes to show the value of advice back then, even before it was considered a profession. And maybe that's the topic that we can cover today, but just the value that they were able to add or financial advisors have always added to that point. So Matt, when you moved into your current role with Australian Unity, you've worked for big banks and institutions, and you've had a fantastic career. What was it ultimately that attracted you to Australian Unity?

MB:
Well, there were a couple of things and it was like in many of these changes, Matt, that listeners would identify within their own careers. So some of it is planned, a lot of it is good luck and good fortunate timing. And for me at the time, three years, I've started three years ago now, it was fortunate timing on a number of fronts. But the thing about Australian Unity that got me was it in the first instance sort of struck my romantic side and perhaps I've got a fair romantic side, but if I look about what's given me great comfort and great sense of achievement over the years was where my personal efforts and what I believed in were in sync with the people around me and the purpose, I guess, that you would call, that our organisation was said to be founded on.

And so when I look at, when I was considering Australian Unity, a few things jumped out at me, one, it was really old and been around a long, long time. And in fact, this is the 180th year, and there's not too many organisations in the place that have that foundation. And the only reason the organisation exists, is to function around making its members, clients, and the community better and focusing on what we can, well, the group calls real wellbeing. So that alignment bit, Matt, was that they really did get me to a time of reflection. So it was good timing from this then CEO, who attracted me to the group, David Brighton. And I'm also attracted to just working with great people. And I was really impressed on a personal note with David and his insight.

MH:
The point of purpose and being aligned to a company's values is becoming more and more important these days, I think, to employees and something that companies really need to focus on. When you reflect back on your career, what were some of the other big learnings or things that you found inspired you to go above and beyond?

MB:
So having a clear sense of why you get out of bed every day to do what you do. I think, probably sounds really obvious to say, but if you’re in a routine or you're on a merry-go-round that your career feels like, and there's a bit of Groundhog day, or there's a bit of relentlessness to it, then just having a found or a grounding place back to being able to remember the why I'm actually doing this. But if I'm doing this to get a paycheck and pay the bills, well, there's some liability in that and looking up, that's well and good, but I think that's got a shelf life. And I think you start to then find yourself wandering away from, am I really going to do that extra 1% or, and for mine, that's not who I am or wanted or need to be.

So that alignment place somewhere you can feel authentic and trusted are also the kind of things that I think enable long-term sort of commitment and the ability to do that extra yard when maybe you don't feel like you've got an in it. And for those of us who have been in and around advice, for the best part of a couple of decades, that's been really important, right? Because it's been a grind, maybe we're better as a community dealing with what's commonly termed these days, crisis fatigue, but we've seemingly done that to varying degrees, for a decade and a half at least. And so having that authenticity, having that trust, having that singular sort of understanding of purpose to deal with those sorts of sustained intensity moments, kind of, that's been pretty important. And when I reflect on the last decade in particular, that's something that I'm really proud of as an individual, but proud of the businesses I've been part of that we've managed to stay the course.

MH:
And I think that's equally a really good point. If you look even at the last 5 to 10 years, particularly when you're in a leadership position navigating or taking a business through a huge change, that was FOFA, but equally then working through the Royal commission, what was some of the other things that you were having to do as a leader to really build resilience in your team, which maybe you thought about or implemented during COVID?

MB:
Yeah, well, COVID has been a fascination in of its own right. But I guess, the thing that stands out for me in the business, we were... quite tragically, one of the jump outs for me was bringing to life in organisations like ours and the businesses we run where we are professional services firms, right. We trade on our relationships and our intellectual property. And so we're all about people and understanding people and how you infiltrate their minds and get them to make decisions and talk about things they potentially don't want to talk about. And that's difficult in its own right. And then we've, to your point, Matt, yes, we've had to deal with scrutiny and what culminated in a Royal commission, of course, the regulatory sort of nightmare that's followed that it has a real people and person impact.

And that tragically for us was brought to life, brought to bear last year when we had one of our team members that sat 10, 15 metres from me, a financial advisor in our Sydney office here at Australian Unity, who tragically took his own life. And so talk about a reality check and about people and what's important and awareness and understanding the impact of the combination of everything. That was probably the most difficult part of the entirety of the last decade or so, because you understand the context and the perspective. And so what we managed to do, is take that tragedy, but bring it together as a really uniting kind of perspective, gaining peace. Where is it, what's important to us? And that's kind of in an odd way will be David's legacy for us is that he's brought that perspective, trust, respect.

So we're going to face what we have to face, and we've got regulatory, we've got all of that stuff, right. But in the end, what's important is, are you connecting? Are you doing the right thing? Let's not do what's easy, let's do what's right. And that's kind of the lessons that it's been brought out for me and kind of culminates sort of part of my career and insights about how we take adversity and pull it together. And I guess one of the most fulfilling, perversely, times of my career has been representing myself and our organisation that young man's family funeral out in the country, New South Wales, right. And being there to answer their questions about what was going on and why, so it's a bit off track and a bit off topic, but those are the real life things that matter. And in the end, all of us in the financial services industry, particularly in advice, are driving to make people's lives better. And if they wellbeing serviced as it is by financial support, then that's what we're there for.

MH:
Yeah. I actually appreciated that story, so thank you for sharing. Given that it is such a big issue, not only in our industry, but more broadly across the across community at the moment. Are there things or suggestions that you would give to people listening that are sort of early warning signs or things that they can do to avoid tragedy in their own circles?

MB:
Oh gosh, no, that's something I've thought about and reflected on a lot. And I am by no means an expert in any of those fields. So, but if I were to offer any sort of suggestion, it would be, not even as just a leader, but just as a prudent community member, right. Have your antenna up and it sounds all auto as straightforward, but to just have you pause for a moment and one, be thankful for what you've gotten yourself, but then just take a pause moment and connect with people on things other than what they're doing and how they're reacting to circumstances at work.

So antenna up, what you see people doing, which may seem odd as an overreaction or an under reaction dramatically from things that those are often telltale signs for mine. And that triggers me to, it's a bit like the IUIK movement that sort of foundation and that's been incredibly important, right, at a personal level. So antenna up, take a pause, ask what might be going on for someone and approach them on it in a sensible way. And I think that just brings dialogue and insight and you're on your own from there, guys and girls there, how you interpret that.

Listen to more Between Meetings podcasts

In this podcast series Matt Heine, Joint Managing Director of Netwealth, chats to industry professionals and thought leaders on what opportunities and challenges they see for financial advisers and the wealth industry as a whole.

Listen to the episodes

 

MH: 
Indeed. One of the areas that Australian Unity is very focused and very relevant to this conversation is around wellness. And they've recently published the Australian Unity wellness index. Can you just share a little bit about what the thinking is behind the index and really what it helps to tease out if you like?

MB:
Yeah. Yeah. This is a really important part of our DNA, right? As our organisation, if you're going to have a purpose around driving, being the most trusted real wellbeing organisation in Australia, then you want to have a pretty clear idea about what wellbeing is. And so for the last 20 years, Australian Unity's partnered with Deakin University on the wellbeing index sites. It's the countries, I guess, largest and most sustained longitudinal, I guess, study into understanding what drives an individual's actual and perceived sense of wellbeing. And so they are annual surveys we've done for each of the last 20 years. So the one we just released, that you referenced Matt, was our 20th anniversary. And if listeners are interested in that, it's going to be on the AU site, it's there, I'm happy to make it available to circulate through to you guys at Netwealth. But it identifies the key drivers of wellbeing, the seven domains of a holistic view of someone's wellbeing.

And for us, if I was to bring it down to kind of what other of the seven domains and how do they intersect? There's a kind of golden triangle that we identified that over 20 years has become irrefutable for us, that what drives someone's sense and actual wellbeing are their finances, their personal relationships, and a sense of achievement in life. And that really resonates. I can see people nod when we talk about that sort of thing, because it just kind of makes so much more sense. And of those three personal relationships are the biggest driver. But what excites me in our business is that the intersection of those three things, and in some instances, I'd say, the disproportionately high reliance or weighting that an individual gives to their financial wellbeing outweighs even their own personal health, wellbeing or security. So those intersections are really important. It tells us that someone's health and their financial wellbeing are inextricably linked. You must have one for the other to occur. And yeah, that's kind of powerful for us in terms of understanding the role that advice plays in driving someone's wellbeing.

MH:
So health and wealth make good sense. I'm interested. Do you have the other seven and do they rank sort of one to seven or are they roughly equal?

MB:
Well, that rank per se and individually, but they intersect differently for each... But the three dominant are those triangles, the finances, personal relationships and achievement. And I think those are the three. If I were to focus on them, those are the ones that make the most difference.

MH:
As you know, we do a lot of research on a range of things are always interested in looking at the year by year movements. And there's no doubt that the last 18 months has created a lot of movements in a lot of areas in relation to technology and advice. It's really been around digital client engagement because of the need to move online. Did you see any major shifts in the wellness index this year, or is it really just around people refocusing on their health and once they realise that their finances are under control and the markets were not only stabilised, but going up?

MB:
Yeah, there was a shift in uncertainty in different age groups and age demographics, I guess. People over 76 still recorded the highest sort of sense of wellbeing. And the drivers behind that, was their standard of living remained relatively stable and their relationships and their sense of community hadn't eroded too far, which was interesting. Married people remained as having the highest level of personal wellbeing, which was sort of an interesting factoid for mine. Another one was that there was a higher wellbeing for fathers than men without kids. Whereas women with children had a slightly lower overall wellbeing compared to the dads, but we haven't seen that happen post our sort of enduring, kind of, ongoing lockdown. So it'd be interesting to see what happens in the next survey as to whether those things ring true.

It also sort of states the bleeding obvious in some aspects, Matt and I know we've sort of spoken about this previously, sort of offline and on the format, but the people who have been most disturbed more recently, I guess, in terms of that pillar of their financial wellbeing, are those with household incomes at 60,000 or less. And they're really struggling to achieve overall wellbeing just because of the uncertainty of that financial security aspect. So I guess for that group, which has been the most negatively impacted by the pandemic, we've got a really emerging sense of community and what we do collectively about solving for that challenge. And that's a difficult one for all of us, because many in that marketplace, aren't really in the sweet spot for some of our markets. So yeah, that's an emerging one. We'll see how it plays out over the next year.

MH:
There's some great trends in there. And I particularly liked the one about fathers being, or having a greater sense of wellbeing. You've got three young, or relatively young children. How have you gone with homeschooling?

MB:
Schooling from home? Thankfully, our schools that our kids go to might've been great. So they have had their Zoom calls and all that. So I call it their schooling albeit from home. And I'm sort of a tutor that comes in. So I've been really scrubbing up on my finding areas of cylinders and cubes and helping to write some English pieces that interpret, for instance, Emma Watson's addressing the United Nations around women's rights. That was a fascinating one, but Matt, it's been great. I know for my year 10 son, who's now doing engineering and trigonometry, he's completely on his own. I've got nothing. I can't help you at all.

MH:
You're a better person as a result is what I'm hearing.

MB:
Yeah. Yeah. Although I'm sure they think I'm really annoying.

MH:
Matt, we've got limited time. So there's a whole range of things that I'd like to ask you, but I'm really interested given your position and also your experience in the industry, what is the future of advice in your mind? Where's it all heading?

MB:
Well, I think the key things to think about on that front Matt, are, I see enormous opportunity, right? And some of the undeniable sort of socio demographic drivers around ageing population, the intergenerational asset transfer, the emergence of millennials and gen X's economic powerhouses, us in the middle. Create the us, in sort of the squeeze generation of gen X who kind of dealing with all those drivers of demand are not the challenge actually, that's the opportunity. And we've got a dynamic of increasing demand, diminishing supply and ongoing sort of disruption for me. And if I was to pitch to your listeners as investors, if I sit, I've got an industry with increasing demand, diminishing supply and disruption, would you like to invest? I couldn't imagine too many people saying no to that. What I think we need to face into though, is the reality of how does that supply meet demand?

And so into the future, I see advice taking a new and different forms. So I think advice which is embedded into product design and or service design of other parts of the industry is going to, not emerge because it's been there a long while, but it's going to become more accepted and prominent. And I think, to my earlier point, about that emerging kind of lower income bracket or lower value group, then I think we as an industry have shunned away from that a little bit, or be scared of embracing great advice on investment profiles that superfunds can implement through age groups and stuff like that are sort of non-examples. I think that will flourish and needs to, I think, at the upper end and some, the wholesale sort of advice space and to the wealthy that will continue for the retail advice space that we, my business plays in, then the future needs and can be anything, right?

It's not about one business model in my mind. I haven't seen one business model that thrives when others don't, but I see that need for a clearer sense of, and clearer and more confident needs based advice delivery, supported by human led technology enabled scale uplifts that will normalise revenue and price points. So we'll bring the cost down. We'll bring therefore price points to a more accessible level, that, whilst we've been speaking about that, I think in the industry, because sometimes I think you'll see over the next two to three years, I think we, the collective, we, all of us will see a real acceleration of that.

MH:
I loved how you just positioned the industry as an investment opportunity and you're right, sounds like something I'd like to invest into. Problem is at this point people aren't. And what I mean by that is that we've got a declining number of advisors with forecast that we're going to drop to about 13,000. We've got increased demand to about 2.2 million Australians based on our research. Very few, if any kids coming out of university wanting to become financial planners or financial advisors, and obviously the, no one coming from overseas at the moment, how do we turn that around? Is Australian Unity or any of the practises you're working with doing anything interesting around grad programmes or getting out into the community to actually talk about advice as a profession?

MB:
Not as much as I'd like to is the honest answer. I'd love to have said that we've got a great academy programme. That's partnering with a whole bunch of universities and bringing hundreds of new people in, unfortunately that's not where we are and you're right. Some long-term or long time traditional participants in the advice marketplace have and are withdrawing, primarily the banks and the big few. I think that we'll do a few things. That will normalise in my mind, revenue. Much of it has been an artificially suppressed revenue line. When you talk about what clients are prepared to pay, because they're experienced with a big, big chunk of the market was they're only charging three or 400 bucks for a piece of advice and sort of constitutes a market norm. And for the self-employed marketplace, that's kind of impossible to participate.

So don't necessarily need to go down that rabbit warren, the point being that as revenues normalised, so price points come up a bit as customers and clients get prepared to pay more and costs will come down. Then I think that profit point, that profit sweet spot will inevitably land in a better and clearer place. When I talk to younger generations of people considering their career paths, the thing that's still disappointing is the residual impact that they've had all of the media scrutiny in particular around what advice is.

When you talk to them about, or actually this is what advice does, and this is the difference it makes in someone's lives and here's how you can make a really, really good living out of it. It all of a sudden, the light bulb goes off. So I'm confident that when people assess the opportunity in that correct light and then they will flood it. I do think that we've got a bit of a trough that we collectively have to try and work through. If I take a 10 year view, I think we're okay. If I take a three to five, two to three year view, we've got some problems. 

The Netwealth Portfolio Construction Podcast

In this podcast series, our investment research team pick the brains of key wealth management professionals to uncover unique insights on the investment areas they are most passionate about.

Listen to the pocasts

 

MH: 
Matt, you've talked about the ability or the need to bring down the cost to serve quite a few times now. Technology's an obvious way to do this, when you look around the market and I'm sure you look at a lot of things, what are some of the really exciting bits of tech out there that you're seeing or seeing your practises adopt?

MB:
Yeah. Lots of a little interesting ones, but what gets my rocks off is kind of a ahead of a lot of sense is some of the non-sexy stuff. I have seen a lot of advisors over the last couple of years in particular fall into the sins of omission, I call it. And that is, they're so scared to do something for fear of doing it wrong, they're doing nothing, either for an existing client or seeing new clients, right. And that has come out of the regulator scrutiny and the sort of the action that's been taken and the breach reporting new changes that we have probably won't help that. So the less sexy stuff actually has been hugely powerful. So how do we build full-proof guard rails for advisors around, if you want to act and do something for a client, follow this proven set of technology enabled, guard rail driven, followed this step, that step, this, the alert, and then you will be fine and you can just focus on your client and do it.

So that stuff, which we've spent a lot of time on over the last couple of years in our shop, that's really excited me, but it ain't sexy. And it's getting us to a foundation where we can increase scale in a safe way, I'll say the emergence of data analytics in connection with that has been great. And I've seen a lot of that shifting of light from retrospective data analytics to prospective, keeping me safe, and prevention's better than cure sort of mindset. Well, this is what's coming and this is what's happening.

And so those have been really powerful for us. And those have been really exciting for nerds like me, about the safety aspect. I've seen some really good, finally ideas that are more practical about how do we take and the elimination of waste out of the advice process. And if you think about what advisors have to go through in a technology, there are a few sort of bottlenecks, that's the first one is, well, how do I find and engage clients? And we've got a said earlier, that's really not, I don't see that as the bigger issue anymore, it's access to clients and those people seeking needs, how do you get that data into the system?

How do you get more efficient producing your widget, which is your advice and the delivery of your ongoing services and how can I more efficiently talk to those partners in the marketplace whom I need to talk to as an advisor to facilitate the strategy I've come up with and by that I'm pointing to product manufacturers, right? So there are some really neat client engagement, data analysts, data capturing tools out there in the marketplace. We heavily use Iress and Xplan as our sort of central repository.

And we have minimum standards that we enable or force advisors to use for that. But more connectivity points into that, which is a gamified sort of fun way to get data in and manage. We work internally on our sort of the effectiveness of producing a widget, but where I think we've got a long way to go, which will drive real efficiency is the effectiveness for a financial advisor and their business to engage in a more efficient way with the suite of platforms superfunds and insurance providers, each of whom have invested lots of time, money and effort in kind of the efficiencies once you're in it.

But if you find a practitioner, I've got, I have clients across three or four main platforms or, and eight insurers, and I've got to therefore learn a dozen systems and processes. And I think maybe with DDO, maybe with annual fee consents, that some of those historical barriers will break down and perhaps the emergence of blockchain and other parts of secure kind of pieces that aren't going to in the long run, be a sustainable point of competitive advantage for any of us, actually just iron out a truckload of the back office uncertainty and inefficiency.

MH:
Matt, this isn't a question I've actually asked any of my guests before, but you've sort of gone there from a data perspective. As an industry, we have more data probably than any other industry, maybe biomedical, what does the licencing doing around cyber security, which is probably risk number one, two, or three, given the amount of information we hold about our clients, how are you helping advisors deal with cyber? And are they actually worried about cyber?

MB:
They are when it gets close to home, but it's probably one of those, to be honest, I think for most practitioners in the marketplace, they've got so many other seemingly more immediate risks and priorities, they are probably not thinking as much about cyber as it is a guess. At an institutional sort of corporate level, we think about it a lot and I must admit, Matt, it's not something I understand really well. So I rely on our technology propeller heads to keep us, to keep us as well guarded as we can. So we rely on those guys and the cybersecurity, I forget the word you'd use for that, but the, I forget the word you used for it. We rely on those guys to do that sort of work for us, but I have to see where it goes wrong run. So we have seen where a number of our advice clients have had hacks attempted to them. They've been pretty sophisticated...

MH:
Usually through G-mail from an overseas location.

MB:
Yeah. Asking to resubmit a withdrawal form or something as simple as that, that kind of looks. So the one adviser had his system hacked and this email purportedly went out from his system to a bunch of his clients saying that they need to resubmit these kinds of regular withdrawal forms or whatever they were. So luckily that was one good news story, right. And we picked it up and we dealt with it. We cut it off, but thankfully, touch wood, not so many of them at the moment.

MH:
Have you had any ransomware texts within the group?

MB:
Not that I'm aware of. Have you?

MH:
That's an interesting topic and maybe we should split spend more time on, but like I said, I haven't asked my guest before, but increasingly reading more and more about it. And obviously I'd think, more financial plan is getting very close to being hacked or having some serious issues.

MB:
Yeah. Well, I think at a personal I get, in the last month, I've probably had at least one text every week, unsolicited texts saying that I've won something and to click on this link. So they are alive and well.

MH:
Let's hope you haven't actually won something.

MB:
I don't know if I have.

MH:
Matt, we're almost out of time just before we go question, I do like to ask all my guests is what do you do in your downtime? How do you sort of de-stressed after a big day of looking after advisers and doing well for your clients?

MB:
So once I'm at home, I'll try to be present at home and like you, kids dominate that, but I don't always think that's a relaxing regeneration time. So there are a couple of things that I do. I'm on a, I was lucky enough to meet and work with Dr. Adam Fraser if people have heard of him. So one of his great lessons that I picked up a few years ago now was this concept of a third space. So being, having finished work and focused on performance, then having a period where that ends and you transition to a new state. So that third space has been really important to me.

And for me, it's physical wellbeing, right? So I love to exercise and I find that very therapeutic and mind cleansing. So for me, the downtime and the cleansing is a little bit of physical exercise, the great outdoors, which is a challenge for all of us through our grounding at the moment. So hopefully for those of us in Sydney, the promises next Monday, we're allowed to gather in groups outside up to five people. So maybe from next week, we can go and do some group exercise outdoors. But for me, that's that and loving of sports, and every sport that I participate in and read, I do, and read the odd book.

MH:
You reading anything good at the moment?

MB:
I just read a really, I'd call it a trashy novel, because I don't read too many fictional novels, but I did treat myself to one over the last week called The Wife and the Widow, I think it was called, Australian author. So it was a bit of a who done it. That was good. And I went and read a paper from Professor Martinson, from the US, which he released ages ago, maybe as even five or 10 years ago, called Crash Course, which has a bit of alarming sort of analysis of the convergence between the three Es, economics energy and the environment and how those intersect. And it was a bit of a doomsday sort of place. But I had read that or stumbled across it in some old files as we moved home a while ago. So I read that again. So there's one for the nerds.

MH:
Fantastic. I'll make sure to Google that. Matt, as always, when we catch up, you've been incredibly generous with your time, thoughts and opinions. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and keep doing all the great work that you are.

MB:
Thank you, It's been a pleasure, anytime.

MH:
Thanks for listening to this episode of Between Meetings, for more episodes, and to subscribe to our series, visit the Netwealth website, iTunes, Spotify, or your favourite listening service. And if you want to contact me or engage or discuss any of the topics raised, please find me on LinkedIn or Twitter, or send me a private message. We hope you can tune into the next episode.