Transcript

Matt Heine:
Hi Jodie, welcome to the show.

Jodie Hampshire:
Thank you so much for having me, Matt.

MH:
It's fantastic to have you on. We've been talking about this for a little while now and I'm glad we could finally get together, albeit virtually.

JH:
Indeed.

MH:
Jodie, your background is fascinating and I think many would know you in your current role or your day job so to speak, but your background and career is very varied and I was wondering if you could indulge us and maybe take us for a little bit of a memory lane.

JH:
How early would you like me to start, Matt?

MH:
I'll leave that to you, but maybe back to the interesting part.

JH:
Oh gosh, all right. So I grew up in a small town and knew that I wanted to work in finance and went and studied at the University of Newcastle. While I was there, I had some very random, crazy jobs, including working at the carnival, working at the greyhounds, picking blueberries, telemarketing. I had to hustle a lot at university, so I think that set me up well for life.

JH:
I was lucky enough to get a cadetship with the Commonwealth Bank's institutional bank, so working with institutional clients. And that was a really great introduction to finance, because like many kids, I had this idea of what a job might be like, but didn't really have any direct experience of finance, none of my family were in finance, in the small town I was in, there weren't really people doing the kind of job that I thought I might like to do. So it was a really nice way-

MH:
And what was that?

JH:
The job that I wanted to do?

MH:
Yeah. When did you decide you wanted to be in finance?

JH:
I think I just always liked money, Matt, and liked being around money and liked thinking about money. So business, finance, whatever that meant, and truly at 18, I didn't know what that meant, that was where I wanted to head. I think banking sounded like a good idea, so I went and did this cadetship and I rotated around I think four divisions of the bank, and it was great because it gave you a look into different types of areas.

JH:
What I realised as I was working there was that there was this industry called superannuation, which I hadn't known much about as a kid, and that it had mandated growth. And I looked and I thought, I think that's a good place to have a career, a place that's growing, the growth is mandated, there looks like lots of opportunity there, investing is interesting, markets are interesting. So I wrangled myself into a job as an investment writer just because I wanted to get into the investment space, and then started to study for my chartered financial analyst qualification, and then moved to Russell the first time early in my career, it was around the year 2000.

JH:
So I worked with Russell for five years in Sydney. I did a number of things working with institutional clients, advising institutional clients on their investment portfolio, I was a junior analyst supporting a senior consultant. And we ended up buying a business, Towers Perrin. Many of my colleagues now are still from the Towers Perrin days, but it was the days of corporate superannuation really starting.

JH:
So corporates tended to have their own in-house super funds and they were starting to outsource those. So Russell had the investment capability but didn't really have the administration capability, so we continued to partner with Towers Perrin, but we decided we needed to join forces in a more meaningful way. So that was exciting for me because I ran the acquisition and integration of Towers Perrin, so that was a really interesting opportunity.

JH:
At the end of that, I said to my bosses at the time, "That's been great, but I want to move to London now." My husband's English, and poor guy, one of the first things I said to him was, "I need to work in London, I've dreamed about it forever." And he said, "But I've been on the skilled migrant list waiting for a couple of years to get a visa to come and live here." So he eventually decided he would go to London with me. He was working with Macquarie Bank at the time and they had a rollover there for him. So I went off travelling for a bit and then went to meet him in London, and I actually started working with Russell in London for two years.

JH:
So that was my first stint at Russell. Then we moved to Dubai. So Macquarie Bank had a joint venture in Abu Dhabi with an office in Dubai, my husband was heading up the Dubai office for them. And I decided not to work for a while and we adopted three children while we were living in Dubai. I had a kid's clothing business at the same time, so I was designing and manufacturing, and wholesaling and retailing kid's clothing. So it was really far way from finance.

MH:
Wow. What a fascinating time that must have been for you.

JH:
It was so, so fun, Matt. It was really creative. It was really, really fun, super creative. I look back on some of the videos that we produced and think gosh, that was a really fun time, but a terrible way to make money in all honesty. Many of those types of businesses are just struggling to achieve scale and I was no different, so I think I probably didn't make much money out of that.

JH:
So we moved from Dubai back to Sydney and I was still out of the workforce, and in the first year back in Australia, it was quite soon after the financial crisis and my husband and I decided that I would go back to work and he would stay at home, and in the meantime we'd had a fourth child. So we'd always said that we'd have one of us at home and it had been me for a long time, but we switched around. So he's been the primary carer for the kids since then, and that's probably going on 10 years now, and I went back to work. So I went to ...

JH:
Sorry, go ahead.

MH:
And how old were the kids when you were in Dubai and when you moved back to Sydney?

JH:
So when we moved back to Sydney, the kids were about 15, 8 and 6, and they said we really want to have a baby, so then, as I said, we had our fourth child. So the first year back in Sydney she was born.

MH:
Wow, very full house.

JH:
It certainly is. So I went to work at Mercer for a bit. And then I had kept in touch with my former colleagues from Russell, they came a couple of times. The first time I wasn't interested to make a move, I was having a good time at Mercer and progressing and I liked the culture there, but the next time they came to talk to me about running the institutional business was a really good opportunity to take a big step up. I had just returned to the workforce after a while out and I'm a believer in boots and all or not at all, so if I'm going to work and people think I'm capable of leading people, then I'm happy to go all in.

MH:
And having been with Russell for a large part of your working life, and as you know we've worked with the business for about 15 years, it's gone through a lot of changes, what were some of the key learnings that you took from your past at Russell and what were the things that you felt important were to stamp your own leadership on the business?

JH:
That's a good question. I think because I have this long tenure at Russell but I've been away doing other things for a long time, I can blend ... I think the heritage of the firm is fantastic, we're actually 85 years old this year. So taking the heritage, this client-focused spirit, this desire to innovate, taking all of that forward and continuing to modernise it is really, really important. I think that when we're doing that well, we are successful. I think often people get really attached to a business as it's been, but you don't survive 85 years without evolving and changing, stopping doing some things, leaning into something, adding something new. So I think being respectful of an organization's history, but always with an eye on the future about what you need to change and how you need to evolve is super important.

JH:
I think your other question was how I approach things or the stamp that I put onto things. I think these firms like Russell Investments, which have got a consulting heritage, can be really intellectual and really cerebral and I work with really, really smart people, but I'm quite known for saying smart doesn't pay the bills. So I think my job as a business leader is to make sure that our good investment ideas are something that are going to be commercially sensible and successful.

MH:
And are you spending a lot of time still with clients to make sure that you are connected to what's going on outside?

JH:
Very much so, Matt. I think I really focus a lot on the people in the team and the clients that we have. And whilst my team do an awesome job looking after the clients, I still maintain relationships with clients. People and clients are my favourite thing in the business, so I stay well connected.

MH:
One of the interesting management techniques that you've introduced recently is meditation. Do you want to just talk a little bit about that for a moment?

JH:
Yes, I would love to. So I'll take you back a little bit. So as you say I've had an interesting life. In fact, Matt, I remember when I was 18 thinking to myself I don't want to have a boring life, I want to have a really fascinating life, and I'm now at the age where I'm really okay with having a boring life from here on in.

JH:
So about eight years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I had just started at Russell Investments in this head of institutional role, so big step up, big team, big opportunity, but also a little scary, and within a couple of months I was diagnosed with breast cancer, so again, a little scary. And I went through all of the surgery, chemo therapy, radiation, the whole thing, probably about six months, and as I came out of cancer, I was pretty good in all of the treatment, my body tolerated it well, my mind was in a good place, but I started to investigate how do I stop this cancer from coming back, how I do make myself as healthy as possible going forward.

JH:
And you ask your doctors that question and for breast cancer they tend to say things like don't drink very much and exercise a lot, but there's not much more beyond that. So I thought well, there's got to be more to it. There's a lot of evidence/conjecture that stress creates inflammation, inflammation creates cancer, so I was continuing to read about the benefits of meditation and thought well, if that helps my mind and body be healthier and prevents or reduces the chance of recurrence of cancer, then that's got to be a good thing.

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JH:
So it was with that angle that I started to think about meditation, but I've been doing it quite seriously for a couple of years, but the first five years or so I really struggled to make meditation really connect. So I would do things like I had the Calm app on my phone and I think I've used Headspace, different apps. And I felt a bit better after I sat and did the meditation, but it wasn't a daily habit that I was doing reliably and it hadn't quite stuck.

JH:
And then a couple of years ago, one of my kids had some really serious health emergencies, like really, really serious, and it was a very, very stressful year. She came out of it okay, but I didn't. I was a bit traumatised from the trauma that we'd been through and I was struggling to come back to myself. I'm a pretty resilient person, I've had lots of things happen in my life and I've always been really resilient, so it was a bit curious, and so I saw my family counsellor, he said, "Go and see the doctor." And then the doctor said, "Go and meditate." And I said, "Well, I already meditate, I do it on the bus for 10 minutes. I'm all over that." And she laughed and said, "No, no, no, go and do it properly."

JH:
So I went to a studio in Sydney and I sat down and I put the phone away, turned the phone off and didn't have any distractions, and just sat and was guided by this teacher in the flesh, for half an hour, and it was such a different experience to the commuting meditation that I'd done. It was transformational for me, it was like ah, okay, this is what people are talking about when they say meditation makes them feel great, makes them feel less stressed, blah, blah, blah.

JH:
So from there, I thought well, I would like to understand mediation a bit better, and so I started to study, to get a teaching qualification. So I got an advanced certificate in mediation and mindfulness. That took me about 18 months that you could fit around my work life, but what I did in that time, Matt, was really develop my own personal practise, so you have to meditate 30 minutes a day to do this training, and that really cemented a habit for me and has had an enormous effect on my state of mind, my resilience, my stress levels, my empathy, so many things. I have never done anything that's impacted my head space so much.

MH:
And I think if you'd mentioned meditation 18 months ago, you would have got used to people rolling their eyes. It had a certain stigma. What certainly my experience through COVID is that it's now [inaudible 00:15:04] and you've got extremely high performing executives and a lot of people are actually talking about the benefits of mediation now, even if in some cases it is the 10 minutes on the tram or the bus.

JH:
Absolutely. And that's better than nothing, I don't mean to dis that, but it didn't quite get me where I wanted to go. But you're right, Matt, I think there has never been such interest in meditation and mindfulness as during COVID. One of the things that I've taken a lot of heart from, as we moved into the pandemic, it was reasonable to look and think oh gosh, this is going to be dreadful for people's mental health, for suicide rates and so on and so on. And yes, it has been dreadful for people's mental health, but I think what it has done, is it's enabled a conversation about mental health that's really broad and that covers all of us.

JH:
I'm sure you were like me in March of last year taking to the team a lot, how you going, how you feeling, what are you worried about, what's not working for you, how's your mental health, what kind of head space are you in. And we might have done that a little bit before depending on the type of leader, but mostly people assume everybody's okay, whereas the pandemic levelled everybody and everybody wasn't okay. And I acknowledge that in Australia, we've been, and particularly outside of Victoria, far more okay than most places. But we had this reason to talk about mental health all of a sudden. And my understanding is that people accessing mental health services has increased in the last year, astronomically, but things like the rates of suicide have not increased and I think that is awesome.

MH:
Absolutely. And so as an employee of Russell, will you be getting mindfulness time each day?

JH:
I teach Russell staff who are interested, so it's a bit like my kids, I don't want to ram mediation down the throats of my team. So there's a core group that love to meditate and I teach them a couple of times a week, but we leave it to the individual's choice, Matt. We have lots of people that are mad, keen exercisers or people that might go to church, we all find our escape in different ways.

MH:
Out?

JH:
Yeah.

MH:
Thank you for sharing that personal journey. I think there's so many parts to it and you certainly haven't led a boring life and I can't imagine you will in the future. But if we pivot to I guess what's happening in the industry, you're obviously very close to it and driving innovation and change in many of the areas, where do you see big opportunities now for advisors and where do you [inaudible 00:17:48] over the next three to five years?

JH:
So I think it's been really heartening to see. I feel like before the pandemic, maybe 2018, 2019, advisors were in a tough place. Their exams, the exams were due, there was the Royal Commission. There were a lot of reasons for advisors to perhaps feel less great about their job than they might normally. And I think that I'm noticing a return of positivity and a sense of optimism in the advice community now as we come out of COVID, relative to how people were as we went into COVID.

JH:
I think something I'm really excited about in the advice industry and I think an enormous opportunity is the role of women. So I think women and money, if you google on the Internet women and money, you'll find all these bad jokes, things like someone stole my credit card, but I didn't report it because they spent less money than my wife. There's all of this stuff about women and money and how terrible and we spend all the money, but the reality is 90% of women will be in charge of their family finances at some point in their life, whether they're prepared or not.

JH:
And I think that that's a huge opportunity for the advice industry to really tap into. So we're going to have 90% of women run their finances, but we have lower retirement balances because of lower pay, longer career gaps for children and caring, we live longer, and on average we're less financially literate. So I think that is a real opportunity for the industry to really transform outcomes for people.

MH:
And are you seeing anyone doing anything particularly interesting or innovative in this space? Because I think on the face of it, it sounds like something simple to do, but the reality is that if you look at a lot of the research that we [inaudible 00:19:49] I guess the women's specific services over in the US, very different presentation, very different messaging, very different way of helping educate women and around goal settings and some of those things.

JH:
Am I seeing anyone do it? So I am noticing the advice firms that we work with showing greater interest in doing some women's specific stuff. I've presented a number of times on money and my money journey, my investing journey. So there's more appetite for that and I think that advice firms are realising that it's probably helpful to present to this group of clients in a slightly different way and to get, if a male partner is the decision maker, financially, to make sure that they're involving the female partner, in that kind of relationship, in the discussion, in the thinking, because chances are she's going to end up running that money at some point. So it's good for her and good for the advisor to be having that discussion and having that inclusion.

JH:
I think apart from that, Matt, I think there's an emergence of money focused educators on social media that's doing a really good job with millennials, so there's a few podcasts for women and money. I'm interested that. There's not that much, I don't think, for older women, so I think that's potentially an opportunity, but all the statistics tell us that millennial women are way more engaged in their money and are interested in making good financial decisions and I think that's really cool.

MH:
Absolutely. And the research would also suggest that women are far better investors, because it's less about ego and emotion.

JH:
Yes, and we research more and we are more long term ... Yeah, there's a book, Warren Buffet, Invest Like a Girl, or something like that. Yes, that's all of the evidence. So the extension of that is there should be more women in the investment industry, and certainly all of us are working hard on that, but that's something we need to start in schools and universities to get more women in. I did teach my 10 year old how to use Excel the other day and I was really excited about showing her and her excitement level didn't quite match mine, so that's a work in progress.

MH:
Absolutely. If you dig down on that a little bit further, I think the value of advice is also something that you're very passionate about and also have done a lot of work on trying to quantify is it the advisor alpha that seeing a professional can actually add. That research is probably now getting a little bit old, but is there key findings that you think are worth sharing?

JH:
Yes. It's not old, Matt. We update it every year with an all-singing, all-dancing new version. But you're right, we think it's a great piece that we can offer to our advisor partners to try and quantify from our perspective what does an advisor add to your investment outcomes or retirement outcomes over the lifetime of your advisor and they're big numbers. I think last year we calculated that the value of advice over and above just the investment advice is about 5.3%. So on a retirement savings amount and compounded over 20 years, it ends up being really, really significant.

JH:
So it's from things like advisors giving advice on the right asset allocation. So we just talked about women, women on average will tend to be conservative investors, so they might invest in a conservative option in their super fund, for example, if they're making an investment choice instead of if they're younger it should perhaps be a growth asset allocation. So an advisor can help with that. We think that adds substantially to your end outcomes.

JH:
Probably one of the biggest things we think advisors do is act as a behavioural coach. All of us have these investment biases, things like over confidence of familiarity bias, so you'll tend to invest in companies in Australia that you know well.

MH:
I know myself I suffer regularly from anchoring confirmation bias.

JH:
Do you? Well, those ones are hard to avoid, I think they're quite common. Our research shows that unfortunately the unadvised members of the population will tend to buy stocks too late. So when you've seen a stock talked up in the news for a week or two, it's probably not a great time to buy. So you're buying them at a high price point and then as things start to turn, there's some kind of issue with an individual stock of some kind of economic downturn or event, or just the markets are down for a day, we see investors selling out at a low point. So retail investors, unadvised, tend to buy high and sell low, which is the worst combination that you can possibly have. So the behavioural coaching aspect of an advisor relationship we think can add 2.3% per annum to your portfolio earnings and that's a lot.

MH:
So given the last 12 to 18 months of extreme volatility, would you expect that number to spike considerably, and will you have a way of [inaudible 00:25:49]?

JH:
I think I would expect it to increase a little bit, but we tend to look at these numbers over very long term periods. So we have seen the behavioural issues exacerbated over COVID. We run a master trust, as well as working with advisors. And in the master trust space we have clients that may not have an advice relationship, so you can see people cashing out or moving their super to cash, might be in high growth, say, or balanced, moving to cash or very conservative in the middle of the pandemic and crystallising those losses, whereas if you are working with an advisor, the advisor is likely to say, "It's scary, we know, but this is what we planned for and hold on."

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JH:
I think my observation around the individuals that were advised during this pandemic was that they really kept their head and I think that the experience of the financial crisis, because it wasn't so long ago, really prepared people well for the pandemic. But we did see an enormous difference between the behaviour of advised individuals and non-advised individuals. So yeah, in answer to your question, we expect probably a little bit of an uptick particularly around behaviour, but they are pretty long term numbers.

MH:
Has Russell done any work, speaking of behaviours, around the Robinhood rally and the likelihood of I guess millennial traders or these more active traders distorting markets in the future having a long term impact?

JH:
Yeah, we have and probably we've been working on this for a while, Matt. So when we think about creating an investment view, we think about cycle, we think about value, and we think about sentiment. Cycle and value are things we've done for a long time, so where we are in the economic cycle, how are stocks priced, does it represent good value based on the fundamentals of the stock or not. But we've certainly in more recent times, and not just the last year, but over perhaps the last 5, 10 years have incorporated sentiment even more.

JH:
So sentiment, if there are a lot of people piling into the market to buy a stock or sell a stock that has an impact on the price of the stock. So we've been incorporating that more. We have measures that we look at to try and assess sentiment in a particular market. I think the more retail investors that you have, the harder it is to forecast how sentiment is going to play out, and things like the Reddit influence on ... Was it GameStop? Sorry, my brain-

MH:
GameStop.

JH:
GameStop.

MH:
That's right.

JH:
Stuff like that I think it's just hard to predict that when you've got larger groups of retail investors, but we learn and change and observe, right?

MH:
Yeah. Larger groups of savvy investors, I think that's probably the difference this time.

JH:
Yes. I read all the stories about what people did with their profits, it's a fascinating clash between the institutional old guard investment world and the millennials. I think we've got a lot to watch out for.

MH:
And then you throw, which we might do another day.

JH:
Indeed. Indeed.

MH:
Some of the research that we've just completed, we did a big study of Australians to look at who are the advisable Australians of the future and one of the interesting numbers that we put out is over the next I think three to five years, there's around 2.2 million Australians that will be seeking advice or in a position where they should be seeking advice. What does the industry need to be doing more of in your mind to really highlight the value of advice and that advisor alpha that the industry can deliver?

JH:
I think one of the ... I was going to say fallout, that's not the right word. One of the consequences of the Royal Commission is there's a lot of coverage advised superannuation, so and so on, in the media and there is perhaps this perception in the general public's eyes that advice is really expensive, and also advice is more expensive than it was pre Royal Commission for a range of reasons, which your listeners will understand.

JH:
So I think it's about telling ... First of all, clarifying how much does advice actually cost, and two, explaining to people what the benefit is, how that cost offsets against the huge, huge benefits that we see. My own experience with advisors, the real benefits that I got were not so much on the investment side, but I come from a different place and many people will get investment benefits, but it was more around things like how are your insurances, let's have a look at your wills. It was those things that even as an investment professional I just always put in the too-hard basket and my advisors helped me enormously.

JH:
And in fact, my advisor had me buy a trauma insurance and then I got breast cancer and she said, "You have trauma insurance, you can claim that," and I was like, "What?" So I've benefited tremendously from all of the other things that the broad, holistic financial advice that advisors give, but I think we need to tell a good story to that, was it 2.2 million Australians about how much they're going to benefit. I don't think we need to be shy about that and we'll put out the Value of Advice report again later in the year to help that.

MH:
Fantastic. I'm conscious we're running out of time rapidly, unfortunately. But what are some of the big trends that you see shaping the industry over the next couple of years. We've talked about women, is there anything from an investment or technology perspective that you think could be a game changer?

JH:
Yes, and I think Netwealth is well positioned here. We think that just as so many things in our world have become very personalised through technology, so if you think about what you do in a day, you might listen to Spotify on the bus or in the car as you're going to work or in your home office at the moment, Spotify is giving you these personalised recommendations based on what you listen to. Think about watching Netflix and Netflix is feeding you content that they think will appeal based on your viewing history. Even a Coke can be personalised with your name on it.

JH:
So in so many industries, everything's getting really, really personalised and I think the investment superannuation industry is catching up here. So platforms like the Netwealth platform enable that. But from an investment management perspective, I think things like SMAs, managed accounts, that are allowing some level of personalization in some sectors are going to become more and more the mainstream as younger investors are coming through. They're expecting this level of personalization. They don't want something that's just off the shelf, so I think that's going to be a really big trend.

JH:
Another area and we've spoken about this before, Matt, is we at Russell Investments have brought personalization to the large scale superannuation relationships. So for those unadvised people in our master trust that have not made an investment choice and sit in our investment default, we've launched a personalised superannuation approach called Goal Tracker, which provides in a digital way supported with in-person help individual asset allocations, individual means of engaging with a super fund, all centred around an individual's retirement income goal that they set with our help.

JH:
So we've been able to use what we know about technology, what we know about investment and the appropriateness of different asset allocations at different points in time to deliver a very personalised solution to everyday Australians. I think there's a going to be more of those sorts of developments bringing personalization to the masses and I think that's really exciting.

MH:
Have you seen good take up of the Goal Tracker service?

JH:
We have. It's only pretty new. What we've found is we had some tools already in our superannuation space called Retire Ready, where you set a retirement income goal and we had those in our suite of tools for about five years. Goal Tracker and the tools around it have only been fully functional for about six months and we haven't done lots of proactive communication on them yet because we were being very risk controlled particularly in a volatile year like last year. But we've found that 60% of the people ... We've achieved already 60% of the people in six months going in and looking at the tools and using the tools compared with the number of people that we got over five years.

JH:
Sorry, I didn't articulate that very well, but within four or five months, we will have hit the same numbers of people playing with the Goal Tracker tool, setting a retirement income goal, that took us five years before we offered this really personalised suite of services.

MH:
And as you said, that was with a large, but not an overt nudge?

JH:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MH:
Did you find that ultimately it was the usability of the tool or just the fact that it was, as you say, far more personalised to their end outcome than it was previously?

JH:
I think a bit of both, but probably more the latter, Matt. We're inherently fascinated by things that are about us. So if you have somebody think about their retirement, what kind of lifestyle do you want to live in retirement, we don't ask someone to say what's the lump sum you think you need or what's the retirement income you think you need, we ask them things like how do you think you're going to holiday when you're retired, and we give them a number of choices and give them some prompts and some pictures. And they go, "Okay, well, I think I would like to go overseas every two years." So they click that one. Food, eating out, health, blah, blah, blah. I think there's eight categories. So you build your lifestyle up and most of the members that we've done research and studies with, they choose a life not unlike the life that they live now, they just want to do more of the same, so people are quite sensible when they're setting these goals.

JH:
But then you come up with a number that's okay, this is the lifestyle I want to live in retirement and this is the associated income goal that I'm aiming for, how am I going against that. So it's all about you and that just makes it a really different engagement experience. I think super funds have done a great job in creating a lot of member communications and trying to educate their members, but I think if you can cross that bridge and make it really personal, it changes the game totally.

MH:
Absolutely. And is your expectation they're going to come back in and check how they are going every 6 months, 12 months when they get their annual statement, or what's the expectation at this stage?

JH:
So we'll tell them how they're going every quarter. So as I said, we create a personalised asset allocation for individuals. We look at that quarterly and we adjust what needs to happen, if there're adjustments that need to be made, and then we communicate with the members in that programme to say hey, we've done this, here's how you're tracking. So it's pretty dynamic process and the information is far more frequent than your annual statement.

MH:
And whilst probably still early days, is there an expectation that will be enough for many members or that it is a precursor to a conversation and advice relationship?

JH:
I think the Goal Tracker tool will actually tell you to seek advice if you've got complex financial circumstances. So it's really designed for your average Australian who has a job, has a super asset, but doesn't have loads of other complicated stuff. So if you're too complicated, we suggest to people to seek advice and we certainly provide a number of advice options within our master trust and recommend advisors. As demonstrated with the Value of Advice report, we're big supporters of advice, but there are groups of people that will just never seek advice and this is about improving outcomes for everyday Australians who won't otherwise seek advice.

MH:
Fantastic. Jodie, we've talked about a number of things, the Value of Advice report, can listeners get that from the Russel website or where do they go to?

JH:
I think so, Matt. I think it's still up there, but certainly you could send an email through the Russell website if it's not up there. I'm pretty sure it's still there.

MH:
Excellent. Jodie, thank you so much for sharing your story. It was far more personal than I thought it would be. You've had some trials and tribulations, but got through it stronger than ever. Congratulations on what you continue to do and look forward to catching up soon.

JH:
Thank you so much, Matt, for having me. I've really enjoyed it.